>> ERIC: CONDITIONS IN MINNESOTA'S PRISONS ARE DETERIORATING.

DEFERRED MAINTENANCE, STAFFING SHORTAGES, AND AN INCREASING NUMBER OF INMATES HAS CREATED UNSAFE CONDITIONS IN SEVERAL FACILITIES.

GOVERNOR WALZ IS ASKING FOR MONEY IN THE BONDING BILL TO FIX UP THE AGING PRISONS, BUT OUR NEXT GUESTS ARE SUGGESTING A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

MAURICE WARD IS A FORMER INMATE AND THE FOUNDER OF J.I.I.V.E., JUSTICE IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS VOTING EFFECTIVELY.

ALSO JOINING US IS DAVID BAN-KEY, A MEMBER OF THE TWIN CITIES INCARCERATED WORKERS ORGANIZING COMMITTEE.

THEY CO-AUTHORED AN OP-ED PIECE THAT APPEARED RECENTLY IN THE "STAR TRIBUNE."

MAURICE, YOU'VE BEEN ON THE INSIDE.

HOW BAD ARE THE CONDITIONS AT STILLWATER AND ST.

CLOUD?

>> IT'S DEPLORABLE.

IT'S RIDICULOUS.

I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW THAT FACILITY IS STILL FUNCTIONING.

>> Eric: WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES.

>> I SAT THERE AND WATCHED A WALL SWEAT.

I SAT THERE AND WATCHED DRINKING WATER FROM TOILET WATER, BASICALLY, BECAUSE IT'S CELL WATER.

AND YOU'RE -- THE ONLY ACCESS YOU HAVE TO WATER IS OUTSIDE YOUR CELL.

BUT IF YOU'RE LOCKED DOWN, YOU'RE UNABLE TO GET THAT WATER.

>> Eric: WHAT'S THE EFFECT ON INMATES WHILE THEY'RE IN PRISON AND THEN WHEN THEY GET RELEASED?

>> I THINK IT'S -- IT'S A BEHAVIOR THAT IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DETACH YOURSELF FROM.

IT'S HARM.

IT'S TRAUMA.

AND SOME OF THE THINGS I STILL DEAL WITH TODAY.

YES.

>> Cathy: DAVID, PEOPLE ARE WATCHING THIS SHOW THINKING, AND, MAURICE, YOU CAN CHIME IN TOO.

YOU KNOW, THE POOR CONDITIONS, SO WHAT?

THESE GUYS ARE IN PRISON.

THESE WOMEN ARE IN PRISON.

IT SHOULD BE UNPLEASANT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY THAT TO SENATE >> WELL, I SAY, IF YOU WANT PUBLIC SAFETY IN THIS TATE, YOU SHOULD BE SUPPORTING CLOSING THESE PRISONS.

ONE, STILLWATER ALONE HAS $245 MILLION OF DEFERRED MAINTENANCE.

SO WE'RE GOING TO BE PAYING FOR IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

AND WE CAN PAY FOR IT IN STILLWATER.

WE CAN PAY FOR IT IN TREMENDOUSLY EXPENSIVE NEW FACILITY OR WE CAN MAKE SENSIBLE INVESTMENTS TO REDUCE PUBLIC SAFETY AND SAVE MONEY AT THE SAME TIME.

>> TWO THINGS I WANTED TO SAY.

WHAT ABOUT GUARD SAFETY?

TWO, WHAT ABOUT THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO WILL RETURN BACK TO SOCIETY?

VERY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE YOU CAN SAY THAT THEY DESERVE THESE CONDITIONS.

BUT THEY ARE UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

AND AT SOME POINT, THEY'RE GOING TO BE YOUR NEIGHBORS.

SO WHY ARE WE DOING THAT TO THEM.

>> Eric: SO YOU FELLAS ARE TALKING ABOUT CLOSING THESE FACILITIES.

>> Cathy: NOT RENOVATING OR CLOSING?

>> CORRECT.

>> Eric: WHAT DOES THAT BLISH?

>> THAT ACCOMPLISHES GETTING THESE INDIVIDUALS HOME.

IT ACCOMPLISHES NOT SPENDING TAX DOLLARS IN HE WRONG WAY.

AND IT ACCOMPLISHES US MOVING IN A NEW DIRECTION.

>> Eric: ARE THERE PROGRAMS ON THE OUTSIDE THAT WOULD, I DON'T KNOW, HALFWAY HOUSES OR TRAINING, OR PART OF THAT?

>> SURE, SO ALMOST IS A HALF OF PEOPLE IN PRISON ARE THERE ON A NONVIOLENT CRIME.

SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU MIGHT SAY, WELL, SOMEONE'S IN PRISON, THEY'RE DANGEROUS.

WELL, HALF OF PEOPLE IN PRISON ARE THERE ON A NONVIOLENT CRIME.

AND THEN BEYOND THAT, THERE'S A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED A VIOLENT CRIME, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, NOT US, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS SAYS YOU ARE LOW RISK TO COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME.

SO I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO ASK OURSELVES, LIKE, WHAT ARE WE DOING WITH OUR PUBLIC SAFETY BUDGET?

RIGHT?

HOW ARE WE INVESTING IN SAFETY?

AND IF WE'RE NOT INVESTING IN SAFETY, WHY DON'T WE?

>> Eric: WOULD YOU NEED MORE PROBATION OFFICERS, PAROLE OFFICERS?

I MEAN, WOULD THEY JUST BE OUT AND HOPE THEY DON'T REOFFEND?

>> O, I THINK WHAT THEY NEED IS INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE WALKED THAT JOURNEY TO WALK ALONG THESE INDIVIDUALS, STORIES, SO PEOPLE ARE INSPIRED.

I THINK YOU SHOULD CREATE COMMUNITY MEMBERS, NOT OFFENDERS, JUSTICE IMPACTED INDIVIDUALS, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE RECONNECTED TO SOCIETY AND FEEL LIKE WE'RE PART OF IT.

>> Eric: AND YOU WOULD USE THE SAVINGS FROM NOT HAVING ALL THE INCARCERATION TO DO THOSE PROGRAMS, I FIGURE?

>> YES, I WOULD THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO -- I THINK WE SHOULD INVEST MORE INTO COMMUNITY BASED PROGRAMMING.

I THINK WE SHOULD REESTABLISH AND REUNITE THE FAMILY.

I THINK THAT PROBATION AND PAROLE OFFICERS CAN MOVE FURTHER OUT, OUTSIDE OF THE CONFINES OF A INCARCERATION AND O MORE SUPERVISION.

YES, I THINK THEY COULD BE RETOOLED AND FIGURE OUT ANOTHER WAY TO DO IT.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT INDIVIDUALS' BODIES AS A MEANS TO MAKE MONEY.

WHEN THERE'S NO NEED FOR THEM TO BE INCARCERATED.

>> I THINK WE SHOULD ALSO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT COLLEGE IS COMING BACK INTO OUR PRISONS.

WE HAVE THE NORTH TAR MG PROMISE THAT THAT SAYS ANYONE CAN GO TO COLLEGE.

WE SPEND TWICE AS MUCH AS A FULL RIDE TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA EVERY YEAR, TWICE, PER PERSON IN PRISON.

BUT PEOPLE ARE NOT COMING OUT OF PRISON RIGHT NOW WITH THEIR MASTER'S DEGREES, WITH THEIR PhDS.

SO WE'RE GOING TO BE HOLDING PEOPLE IN A CAGE, WE SHOULD BE SUPPORTING THEM IN HEALING AND SETTING THEM UP TO SUCCEED, SO THAT WHEN THEY'RE COMING OUT, THEY'RE GOOD AND CAN BE BUILDING OUR SOCIETY AND NOT JUST IN THIS LIMBO THAT WE PUT THEM IN.

>> Cathy: WE HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND GOING BACK TO OUR VIEWERS.

ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

SO IF YOU COMMITTED A CRIME, WHICH YOU DID, SHOULD YOU NOT HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT?

AND THAT MIGHT FOR MANY PEOPLE BE PRISON.

>> MY QUESTION IS, THEN TELL ME WHEN THE CONSEQUENCES END.

I PAID MY DEBT TO SOCIETY.

I'VE DONE ALL YOUR PROGRAMMING.

I'M BACK IN THE COMMUNITY.

WHEN DOES IT END?

I MEAN, THAT'S A PART OF COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES.

THIS IS A RED SCARLET LETTER.

[Overlapping conversations] >> I WOULD ALSO JUST SAY THAT IF SOMEONE IS NOT A DANGER, IS THE BEST WAY FOR THEM TO REPAY THEIR DEBT TO SOCIETY TO SIT IN A CAGE?

CAN YOU DO THE MOST GOOD FOR CHANGING OUR STATE AND FOR CREATING SAFETY IN OUR STATE BY SITTING IN A CAGE AND COSTING $70,000 A YEAR?

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

AND IF THE ANSWER IS NO TO THAT ... WELL, ONCE SOMEONE HAS TURNED THEIR LIFE AROUND, GOT THEIR DEGREE, DOING THEIR THING, WHY ARE WE NOT IN FACT WELCOMING PEOPLE HOME AND WELCOMING THEM HOME TO BREAK THE PS CYCLES OF VIOLENCE THAT THEY HAVE INHERITED AND BEEN TRAUMATIZED BY.

>> Cathy: WHAT HAS BEEN THE REACTION TO THE OP-ED PIECE?

>> PEOPLE HAVE BEEN STOPPING ME EVERYWHERE I GO.

I MEAN, LITERALLY, CALLING ME UP, TELLING ME IT WAS FANTASTIC.

>> Eric: IT'S WELT WORTH LOOKING AT.

IT'S A OP-ED IN THE "STAR TRIBUNE."

THAN