>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

DONALD TRUMP THREATENS TO MASSIVELY BLOW UP IRAN'S LARGEST GAS FIELD IF ATTACKS ON GULF ENERGY CONTINUES.

U. S. DEFENSE SECRETARY CHUCK HAGEL JOINS ME.

AND ISRAEL'S STRATEGY AS THEY KNOCK OFF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC'S LEADERSHIP.

HOW DOES THE PAST INFORM THE PRESENT?

I ASK ALI VAEZ OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.

PLUS, SAM BELL SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN WHO SPEAKS TO MAGA WOMEN.

> >> > >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ARAB AND ISLAMIC STATES ARE CALLING ON IRAN TO CEASE ATTACKS WHILE AFFIRMING THEIR RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THIS COMES AS THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS ENTERING A NEW PHASE.

A WAR ON ENERGY.

PRECIPITATED BY ISRAEL'S ATTACK ON IRAN'S SOUTH GAS FIELD.

TRUMP CLAIMS HE KNEW NOTHING OF THE ATTACK BUT SOURCES SAY OTHERWISE, AFTER IRAN HIT BACK AT QATAR'S MAIN ENERGY HUB, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT GAS FACILITY INS THE WORLD, TRUMP PUT OUT AN EXTRAORDINARY POST SAYING HE THREATENED TO DECIMATE IT ITSELF IF IRAN HITS GULF OIL AND GAS FACILITIES AGAIN.

ENERGY PRICES ARE SOARING AS THE STRAIT REMAINS VIRTUALLY IMPASSABLE.

AND OIL EXECUTIVES ARE WARNING THIS FUEL CRUNCH WOULD WORSEN.

MEANTIME, AGAIN, OMAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER WHO BROKERED THE RECENT NUCLEAR TALKS CALLED THIS AN UNLAWFUL WAR.

AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S GREATEST MISCALCULATION.

WHILE U. S. DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH SAYS WE ARE ON PLAN AND WINNING.

CHUCK HAGEL WAS A REPUBLICAN SENATOR WHO SERVED AS U. S. DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE IS A DECORATED ARMY VETERAN WHO FOUGHT IN THE VIETNAM WAR AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

DEFENSE SECRETARY CHUCK HAGEL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT DOES YOUR GUT TELL YOU?

DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP KNEW ABOUT THE ISRAELI STRIKE ON THE OIL FIELD AND LET ME ASK YOU THAT FIRST.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

BEFORE I GIVE YOU A DIRECT ANSWER ON THAT, LET ME START WITH KIND OF JUST SETTING THE CONVERSATION.

AND FRAMING THIS CONVERSATION.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE.

TWO WEEKS AGO, THE ECONOMIST MAGAZINE HAD AS ITS COVER AN EXPLOSION OF A SHIP AND A BLARING HEADLINE, THAT BLARING HEADLINE WAS A WAR WITHOUT A STRATEGY.

THAT PRETTY MUCH SUMS THIS UP.

AND WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT A WORLD WAR ESSENTIALLY THAT HAS BEGUN, THAT GETS MORE SEVERE EVERY DAY, AND YOU LOOK AT INSTABILITY AND YOU LOOK AT VOLATILITY AS NOW DOMINATEING THE GLOBAL STAGE.

THOSE ARE TWO OF THE GREATEST GLOBAL THREATS TO GLOBAL STABILITY.

AS THIS ESCALATES EVERY DAY, AS YOUR QUESTION JUST NOTED, WITH NO END IN SIGHT, WITH NO STRATEGY, WHAT COMES NEXT, WHY ARE WE THERE, WHAT ARE WE DOING AND THE OTHER THING HERE I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE OF THIS AND STAND BACK, WE ARE SEEING OUR ALLIES WALK AWAY FROM US.

THERE IS GOOD REASON FOR THAT.

WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP MORE THAN A YEAR AGO STARTED ISOLATING AMERICA AND STARTED DISMANTLING THE POST WORLD WAR II WORLD ORDER, THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES.

CONSEQUENCES WOULD FOLLOW ALL OF THAT.

TARIFFS, MOCKING OUR ALLIES.

AND SO, THIS IS BUT ONE.

I MEAN, WE HAVE THIS NOW, THIS MIDDLE EAST WAR THAT IS TOTALLY INFLAMED, GETTING WORSE, WITH HUGE CONSEQUENCES NOW FOR THE WORLD, YOU HAVE A WAR IN UKRAINE, FIRST TIME SINCE WORLD WAR II WHERE A EUROPEAN NATION HAS BEEN INVADED.

AND WE ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, THE OMANI FOREIGN MINISTER BROKERING THE TALKS IN DIRECT TALKS BETWEEN AMERICA AND IRAN RIGHT UP TO THE DAY BEFORE THE WAR STARTED, HAS WRITTEN A VERY OPEN AND FORWARD LEANING AND QUITE RARE KIND OF ARTICLE.

AND HE IS BASICALLY SAYING THAT FIRST OF ALL, HE BELIEVED THAT A NUCLEAR DEAL WAS POSSIBLE AND WAS ON THE WAY JUST BEFORE THE WAR BROKE OUT OR THE AMERICANS AND THE ISRAELIS ATTACKED IRAN.

HE ALSO SAID THIS HAS BEEN AMERICA'S GRAVEST MISCALCULATION IN TERMS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

THE GREATEST MISCALCULATION OF ALL FOR THE U. S. , QUOTE, WAS ALLOWING ITSELF TO BE DRAWN INTO THIS WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND HE OBVIOUSLY SAYS DRAWN INTO THE WAR BY ISRAEL.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WITH YOU, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

>> I DO.

I MEAN, IF YOU START BACK THREE WEEKS AGO WHEN THE SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO WAS ASKED WHY DID YOU GET INTO THIS WAR, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE, HE GAVE AN ANSWER THAT THE NEXT DAY THE PRESIDENT COMPLETELY DISMISSED.

AND SO WE HAVE SEEN THREE WEEKS OF A WAR NOW THAT CONTINUES TO INCREASE IN EVERY WAY WITH NO CLEAR PURPOSE AND I THINK THE STATEMENT YOU JUST READ IS AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF THE TROUBLE WE ARE IN, AND THE DIFFICULTY WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET OUT.

ONCE YOU START THESE THINGS, JUST LIKE VIETNAM.

AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ.

IF YOU CAN'T ANSWER QUESTIONS LIKE WHAT COMES NEXT STARTING WITH WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE, HOW DO YOU GET OUT OF THIS?

AND, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS BUT IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE AND HAVE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES ALL OVER THE WORLD IN EVERY WAY AND YOU HAVE THE OTHER ELEMENT OF THIS, TOO.

AS WE CONTINUE UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP TO UNDERSTOOD WINE THE POST WORLD WAR II WORLD ORDER WE ARE ISOLATING THE UNITED STATES, INCREASING THE SUPREMACY OF CHINA AND HELPING RUSSIA AND ALL AGAINST OUR INTERESTS.

>> I WANT TO PLAYING THE FROM ONE OF YOUR LATEST SUCCESSORS, PETE HEGSETH.

HE GOES OUT EVERY DAY, AND ESSENTIALLY, LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID TODAY.

>> THE MEDIA HERE, NOT ALL OF IT, BUT MUCH OF IT, WANTS YOU TO THINK JUST 19 DAYS INTO THIS CONFLICT THAT WE ARE SOMEHOW SPINNING TOWARD AN ENDLESS ABYSS OR A FOREVER WAR OR A QUAGMIRE.

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

NOBODY CAN DELIVER PERFECTION IN WARTIME.

THIS BUILDING KNOWS THAT MORE THAN ANYONE.

BUT REPORT THE REALITY.

WE ARE WINNING.

DECISIVELY.

AND ON OUR TERMS.

>> SO, SECRETARY HAGEL, HE LOOKED STRAIGHT INTO THE CAMERA AND SAID BEFORE HE DELIVERED THAT THAT HE WANTED TO TALK DIRECT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BECAUSE THE PRESS WAS BASICALLY GETTING IT ALL WRONG AND WAS AGAINST TRUMP AND WANTED TRUMP TO FAIL SO I WANT TO ASK YOU FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AND YOU WERE A REPUBLICAN, AS A SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, WINNING DECISIVELY TOWARD OUR OWN TERMS, NOTHING WOULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH THAT WE ARE HEADED TOWARD A QUAGMIRE?

>> WELL I THINK THE REALITY IS JUST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE SECRETARY SAID.

WE CONTINUE TO SPIN OUT OF CONTROL.

WE CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE.

AND AGAIN AS I SAID HERE A COUPLE OVERMANS AGO, WHERE IS ALL OF THIS GOING?

AND AS YOU WIDEN THE WAR, AND YOU WIDEN IT IN EVERY DAY AND YOU CONTINUE TO SAY THE AMERICANS SAY THIS DAY TODAY IS GOING TO BE THE WORST DAY FOR IRAN.

WE ARE GOING TO HIT THEM HARDER THAN WE HAVE IN THE LAST THREE WEEKS.

WELL IF THAT'S NOT ESCALATION, AND A FOREVER WAR, I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN KNOWING FROM THE PRESIDENT OR THE SECRETARY OF STATE, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, HOW IS THIS GOING TO END?

IT IS HARD TO ANSWER THAT I KNOW BECAUSE YOU CAN'T EVEN ANSWER WHY DID WE GET IN THIS WAR?

WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE?

WE STILL HAVE CONFLICTING, DEPENDING ON WHO YOU TALK TO, CONFLICTING ANSWERS TO THAT.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU TO REACT TO YESTERDAY'S CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS WHERE THE AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE GROUP.

THE DNI, CIA.

I THINK THE FBI WAS THERE AS WELL AND THEY CONTRADICTED THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S REASONS FOR GOING TO WAR OR REFUSE TO BACK UP WHAT HE HAD SAID ON IRAN'S BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT, ON IRAN'S IMMINENT NUCLEAR WEAPONS THREAT.

THEY DID NOT SAY THAT THERE WAS AN IMMINENT THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THIS, TOO, THEY ARE INVESTIGATING MR.

KEMP, THAT OFFICIAL.

BUT, THAT MAY BE JUST A COINCIDENCE.

LIKE SO MUCH OF THIS, THEY LIKE TO PROJECT IT IS.

BUT TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, I DON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE.

SO I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND HOW INTELLIGENCE IS HANDLED.

BUT, FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND THE PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED TO THE LAST MONTH, NO, IRAN WAS NOT A THREAT TO US.

I MEAN, WHAT WAS ALL THIS ABOUT LAST YEAR?

WHEN THE UNITED STATES BOMBED THE HELL OUT OF ALL OF THEIR NUCLEAR FACILITIES AND THE PRESIDENT TOOK CREDIT FOR ELIMINATING ANY THREAT BECAUSE WE BOMBED THEM.

HOW DOES THAT FACTOR INTO THIS THREAT THAT WAS SO IMMINENT?

I JUST DON'T THINK FROM WHAT I KNOW AND THE PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED TO AND LIKE MR.

CANT SAID, THERE WAS NO IMMINENT THREAT AND WE WERE TALKING TO THEM RIGHT UP TO THE TIME THAT HE STARTED BOMBING THEM WITH ISRAEL.

SO, THE INCONSISTENCIES HERE ARE BLARING.

>> YOU MENTIONED MR.

KENT.

JOE KENT, THE FORMER ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL RESIGNING SAYING EXACTLY THAT, THAT IRAN POSED NO IMMINENT THREAT TO OUR NATION.

I ALSO WANTED TO ASK YOU, TULSI GABBARD, THE HEAD OF DNI SAID ISRAELI AND U. S. OBJECTIVES DIFFERED SAYING THE OBJECTIVES LAID OUT BY EACH SIDE ARE DIFFERENT.

DO YOU SEE THAT AS WELL?

ON EACH SIDE THEY SAID THERE IS NO DAYLIGHT BETWEEN US AND WE ARE WINNING AND ET CETERA.

>> WELL, WHAT I SEE THERE FIRST IS FURTHER CONTINUATION OF THE INCONSISTENCY OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THEIR TOP OFFICIALS ABLE TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE TO ANSWER SOME PRETTY BASIC QUESTIONS.

I MEAN, IS OUR OBJECTIVE A REGIME CHANGE?

IS THAT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?

I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, ISRAEL IS NOW VERY ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN A WAR TO THEIR NORTH IN LEBANON.

BOMBING IRAN.

HOW MUCH INFLUENCE ISRAEL HAD OVER MR.

TRUMP TO START THIS WAR?

ALL THOSE ARE INCONSISTENCIES AN UNANSWERED QUESTIONS THAT WILL COME OUT.

I USED TO TELL MY STAFF JUST REMEMBER, THERE ARE NO SECRETS IN THE COURTHOUSE.

EVERYTHING COMES OUT, AND IT SHOULD.

BUT JUST BOTTOM LINE, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SHOULD BE TOLD THE TRUTH.

CONGRESS IS ABSENT HERE.

WHY ARE WE DOING THIS?

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE CONGRESS' VOMIT, WE STARTED THIS WAR WITHOUT ANY OF THAT.

>> LET ME JUST ADD TULSI GABBARD TESTIFIED WHILE THE IRANIAN REGIME AND I WILL ADD AND ITS MILITARY IS LARGELY DEGRADED, THE GOVERNMENT STILL APPEARS TO BE INTACT.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU NOW TO REFLECT BACK TO YOUR TIME BECAUSE THE JCPOA WAS BEING NEGOTIATED WHILE YOU WERE STILL IN OFFICE UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SORRY, UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

>> OBAMA.

>> YEAH.

AND, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST THE IRANIAN REGIME AT ALL SAID OH, IT WAS JUST WINDOW DRESSING OR A BAND AID OR IT HAD ALL OF THESE SUNSET CLAUSES AND WOULD NEVER REALLY GIVE YOU A SECURITY ON THE NUCLEAR FRONT.

JUST TELL US NOW WHAT IT DID DO AND WHAT IT MIGHT HAVE LED TO DIFFERENT TO WHERE WE ARE NOW.

>> WELL I THINK IT WAS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

I WAS A STRONG SUPPORTER OF IT.

I THINK IT WAS EXACTLY THE SMART WAY, THE RIGHT WAY TO GO FOR NOT ONLY IRAN IN OUR INTEREST, BUT FOR THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.

BECAUSE WHAT IT DID, IT DIDN'T DO EVERYTHING.

BUT THE FIRST THING THAT AGREEMENT ADDRESSED WAS THE NUCLEAR THREAT.

OF IRAN.

IT FOR THE FIRST TIME GAVE US, THE UNITED STATES, OUR ABILITY TO PUT OUR OWN INSPECTORS IN IRAN WITH THE IAEA FROM THE UNITED NATIONS WHICH WAS A HUGE, HUGE DEAL.

ANOTHER PART OF THIS WAS THAT WE HAD EIGHT NATIONS TOTAL WITH THE UNITED NATIONS.

ALL SIGNING OFF.

ALL SUPPORTING IT.

OUR ALLIES, CHINA, RUSSIA.

ALL OF THEM SUPPORTED THIS.

WHAT IT ALSO DID, IT OPENED UP IRAN.

YES.

YES.

IT RELIEVED THEM OF SOME SANCTIONS BUT HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING FOR THE FUTURE OF IRAN.

FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF IRAN WHO WANT AND DESERVE NEW LEADERSHIP.

THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY AS IT WAS DEVELOPING AND OPENING UP THEIR COUNTRY WHERE OTHER COUNTRIES WOULD COME IN TRADE WITH THEM AND THINGS WOULD DEVELOP AND OPEN UP WITHOUT KILLING EACH OTHER.

WITHOUT THE INCREDIBLE DESTRUCTION THAT IS GOING ON NOW.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER PIECE TO THAT ACT.

BUT IT WAS THE SMARTEST OF ALL POSSIBILITIES LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY, THE IDEA OF RULES OF ENGAGEMENT AND WHAT YOU HAVE JUST TALKED ABOUT I THINK THE DESTRUCTION OF THE COUNTRY AND WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THE FUTURE PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKS ABOUT HITTING IRAN SO HARD, QUOTE, THEY WILL NEVER RECOVER OR RAINING DEATH FIRE AND FURY ON IRAN?

THAT IS HEGSETH AS WELL.

EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE CALLING FOUL SAYING IT IS RECKLESS AND ILLEGAL.

AND THAT A FORMER FRENCH PRIME MINISTER SAID TRUMP IS TAKING THE U. S. TOWARD BECOMING A ROGUE STATE.

SINCE SECRETARY HEGSETH HAS TALKED ABOUT USELESS RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THEM GOING EVEN FURTHER OFF THE RESERVATION?

NOT JUST CONDUCTING A MILITARY CAMPAIGN, BUT ONE THAT COULD BE, COULD HAVE THE WHOLE BUSINESS OF WE WILL TAKE NO QUARTER WHICH MEANS NOT SAVING AND PERHAPS EXECUTING PRISONERS?

>> OH SURE.

I MEAN, THIS CROWD DOES NOT COMPLY WITH ANY GUIDELINES OR RULES OR LAWS.

I MEAN, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS ONCE AGAIN REFLECT ON WHAT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAID WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT WHEN THE WAR IS GOING TO END AND HIS RESPONSE WAS, WELL, WHEN I SAY IT'S GOING TO END.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

HE SAID, WELL, MY INSTINCTS WILL TELL ME WHEN IT IS READY TO END.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

NO PRESIDENT HAS EVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS GOING TO OCCUR HERE AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT'S GOING ON, WE ARE MANUFACTURING A WHOLE NEW GENERATION OF YOUNG TERRORISTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT IS ONE CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT'S COMING HERE.

AND I TOO AM CONCERNED WITH YOUR QUESTION TO ME ABOUT ENGAGEMENT IN RULES AND INTERNATIONAL NORMS AND HOW WE DEAL WITH PRISONERS.

THEY SAY THEY ARE NOT GOING TO INTRODUCE GROUND TROOPS THREE WEEKS AGO, BUT NOW, SOME OF THE OFFICIALS IN THE ADMINISTRATION ARE SAYING THAT OPTION IS OPEN.

AND WE ARE EVIDENTLY SENDING A MARINE BATTALION OF 2200 MARINES OVER INTO THAT AREA WITHOUT AT LEAST ANY OF KNOW OF WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SENDING THOSE GROUND TROOPS.

>> THE LATEST IS THE PRESIDENT IN THE OVAL OFFICE SAYING I WILL NOT DEPLOY GROUND TROOPS.

IF I W I WOULDN'T TELL YOU, SO WE DON'T KNOW.

IT'S THE LATEST PUBLIC UTTERANCE.

ANY WAY, SECRETARY HAGEL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE IN THIS VERY DANGEROUS TIME THAT WE ARE IN.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

BYE BYE.

> >> NOW FOR THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, THIS WAR IS EXISTENTIAL AND ASYMMETRICAL.

THEIR PLAN TO CAUSE THEM PAIN SO THEY PRESSURE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO END THIS WAR.

MEANTIME, ISRAEL CONTINUES ITS ASSASSINATION STRATEGY WITH NEARLY DECAPITATIONS OF REGIME OFFICIALS.

ONE SENIOR IRANIAN OFFICIAL TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES THE MOOD WITHIN THE REGIME IS QUOTE ONE OF SHOCK AND ANXIETY WHILE A SENIOR OFFICIAL TOLD ME THAT IT IS ENERGIZING THE BASE.

ALI VAEZ IS AN IRAN AMERICAN NUCLEAR EXPERT WHO ADVISED ON THE JCOP TALKS AND IS PROJECT DIRECTOR AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP AND HE IS JOINING ME FROM GENEVA.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU CHRISTIANE.

>> I WANT TO START WITH THE NEWS AGAIN, THE ARAB STATES, THE GULF STATES HAVE SAID STOP IT AND WE BASICALLY RESERVE OUR RIGHT TO RETALIATE ON YOU, IRAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESULT OF THAT FROM IRAN?

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO WORK.

BECAUSE THERE IS MORE AND MORE EVIDENCE THAT SOME OF THE ATTACKS THE U. S. HAS CONDUCTED HAS BEEN FROM EITHER THE TERRITORY OF THESE COUNTRIES OR THE AIR SPACES OF THESE COUNTRIES AND IRAN DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF OTHER OPTIONS FOR EXTERNALIZING THE PAIN OF THIS CONFLICT.

SO I'M AFRAID AS LONG AS THE U. S. ISRAELI ATTACKING ON IRANIAN TERRITORY CONTINUE, IRAN WILL ALSO CONTINUE TO ATTACK ARAB GULF STATES.

THE WAY THIS CAN GET WAY WORSE, CHRISTIANE, BOTH SIDES WILL START GOING AFTER EACH OTHER'S ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

IT IS ONE THING TO LIMIT THE EXPORTS OF ENERGY OUT OF THIS REGION WHICH CAN RECOVER IN A MATTER OF DAYS OR WEEKS BUT IF PRODUCTION IS TAKEN DOWN, THIS MIGHT HAVE A LONG TERM EFFECT.

MAYBE MONTHS IF NOT YEARS.

AND THAT WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR ALL.

>> THAT IS WHAT A WHOLE LOAD OF OIL COMPANY EXECUTIVES DID WARN JUST RECENTLY.

SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING?

ISRAEL HAS CONDUCTED A WAVE OF TOP, TOP, TOP LEVEL ASSASSINATIONS.

YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE ENTIRE LOT WAS OUT OF COMMISSION.

THEY ARE NOT.

BUT YOU HEARD WHAT SOMEBODY SAID TO THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT THERE IS PANIC AND SHOCK.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE EFFECT NOW OF THIS STRATEGY OR RATHER, WHATEVER, STRATEGY OR TACTICS IN THE LAST THREE WEEKS?

>> SO LOOK, I THINK THERE IS AN ISRAELI AND AMERICAN LACK OF STRATEGY WE CAN DISCUSS SEPARATELY.

ISRAELI IS TO DISMANTLE THE STATES IN IRAN BY REMOVING ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE IN STATE CRAFT.

ANYONE WHO CAN ENGINEER ANY KIND OF OFF RAMPS.

ISRAEL WANTS TO ENSURE THIS ENDS WITH IRAN BECOMING A FAILED STATE.

COMPLETELY DEFANGED AND DOES NOT POSE ANY CHALLENGE TO ISRAEL'S FULL DOMINANCE OVER THE REGION.

SO ANYTHING THAT EMERGES IS TOTALLY FINE WITH ISRAEL AND CAN STAY IN THIS WAR AS LONG AS IT IS REQUIRED.

BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE COST IS SHOULDERED BY THE UNITED STATES.

THE U. S. WENT INTO THIS BASED ON A LOT OF WISHFUL THINKING.

IF IT IS DECAPITATED IT WOULD FULLY FOLD AND QUICKLY COLLAPSE.

NOT REALIZING THAT THIS IS A STATE.

IT IS A VERY ENTRENCHED STATE AND DEEPLY BENCHED.

EVERY COMMANDER HAS A REPLACEMENT.

EVERY LEADER HAS A REPLACEMENT AND IF WE ARE TO COMPLETELY ELIMINATE THE LEADERSHIP CLASS OF THIS REPUBLIC, WE HAVE TO BE IN THIS FOR SEVERAL MONTHS AND THIS WOULD COME AT A COST OF COMPLETELY DESTROYING THE COUNTRY AND A VERY HIGH CIVILIAN CASUALTY COST.

AND WE WOULD CREATE A VERY UNSTABLE SITUATION THE DAY AFTER.

SO, FROM WHAT I SEE, THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP IS NOWHERE NEAR THE DRINK OF COLLAPSE.

NOW THE POWER HAS GONE TO THE SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT.

EVEN IF HE IS ELIMINATED THERE WILL BE OTHER PEOPLE STANDING IN THE LINE TO FILL HIS SHOES.

>> SO, THEN, WHAT OPTIONS FOR OFF RAMPS?

AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?

FOREIGN MINISTER SAID ON MARCH 15th, WE NEVER ASKED FOR A CEASE FIRE AND WE HAVE NEVER ASKED EVEN FOR NEGOTIATION.

THE PRESIDENT SAYS ANY PEACE DEAL REQUIRES REPARATIONS AND A GUARANTEE THE U. S. AND ISRAEL WILL NEVER ATTACK AGAIN.

TRUMP SAYS IRAN WANTS A DEAL, BUT ON TERMS THAT HE WON'T ACCEPT.

AND AS YOU POINTED OUT, ISRAEL DOESN'T WANT A DEAL.

IT JUST WANTS TO DO THE BEST IT CAN TO DECIMATE THE REGIME.

SO WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS HEADED?

IS THERE ANY PROSPECT OF A NEGOTIATION AND WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> LOOK I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT BOTH SIDES ARE CAUGHT IN AN ESCALATION TRAP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP COULD HAVE COME UP WITH A NARRATIVE OF VICTORY IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THIS WAR.

SAID HE KILLED THE SUPREME LEADER AND WALKED AWAY.

BUT HE STAYED IN IT AND NOW, THE WAR IS ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

THE WAR IS ABOUT OPENING THE STRAIT.

THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE UNLESS THE U. S. IS WILLING TO ENGAGE IN A VIETNAM STYLE MASSIVE CARPET BOMBING OF THE SOUTHERN SHORE OF IRAN AND POTENTIALLY EVEN THEN WOULD HAVE TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN THE PERSIAN ISLANDS OR OCCUPY THE SOUTHERN SHORE.

THE HUMAN COST OF THIS ON BOTH SIDES WOULD MAKE IT SO MUCH MORE BUILT TO RESOLVE BUT IT APPEAR IT IS PRESIDENT WANTS SOME SORT OF A CONCRETE ACHIEVEMENT LIKE THAT.

OR HE HAS TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OUT THE STOCKPILED ENRICHED URANIUM THAT IS MISSING.

OR HE MIGHT HAVE TO KILL THE KNEW SUPREME LEADER.

I FEEL THAT HE NEEDS SOME SORT OF A BIG TANGIBLE WIN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO PULL BACK.

EVEN THEN, THE IRANIANS MIGHT NOT ARI TO AN UNCONDITIONAL CEASE FIRE.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE.

THEY AGREED LAST YEAR ONLY TO BE TARGETS OF AN ILLEGAL AND RECKLESS AGGRESSION EIGHT MONTHS LATER.

AND SO, THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS IS EITHER A SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION OR CHINA INTERVENES AND PROVIDES SECURITY GUARANTEE.

THERE IS NO SUCH NEED AS A BINDING GUARANTEE OTHER THAN THE FACT IT BECOMES CLEAR THIS KIND OF WAR IS EXTREMELY COSTLY AND DOESN'T NECESSARILY BRING THE KIND OF OBJECTIVES THAT THE U. S. AND ISRAEL HAD IN MIND.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE IRANIAN PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.

YOU MAY HAVE HEARD SECRETARY HAGEL SAY THE JCPOA WAS BEGINNING TO EMPOWER A MIDDLE CLASS WHO WAS BEGINNING TO LAY THE GROUND WORK FOR THEM TO TAKE MORE OF THEIR LIFE, THEIR POLITICS AND ECONOMY AND FREEDOMS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND THAT MIGHT HAVE YOU KNOW, MITIGATED THE HARD LINE REALITY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THAT IS JUST WISHFUL THINKING AND THERE IS A WHOLE GEN Z WHO OBVIOUSLY IS SUMPING UNDER THE BOMBINGS BUT WANT TO SEE THIS REGIME TOPPLED ONCE AND FOR ALL.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

MANY WHO BELIEVED THERE MIGHT BE SOME GLIMMER IN REFORM OR WHATEVER HAVE BEEN, DISCREDITED.

>> I THINK SECRETARY HAGEL IS RIGHT THAT IN 2015 THERE WAS SPACE FOR STRENGTHENING THE MIDDLE CLASS IN IRAN.

THE MIDDLE CLASS WILL GROW FROM 65% TO AROUND 85% CON SIDING WITH THE RULING ELITE WHO WERE IN THEIR 70s AND 80s DYING OUT BY THE FORCE OF NATURE SO THE COUNTRY BY NOW WOULD BE IN A BETTER PLACE TO TRANSITION TO SOMETHING MORE MODERATE.

BUT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID IN 2018 BY WITHDRAWING FROM THE NUCLEAR DEAL, REIMPOSING SANCTIONS WAS TO REVERSE THIS DYNAMIC AND WEAKEN AND IMPOVERISHES THE MIDDLE CLASS AND STRENGTHENED THE HARD MEN WITH GUNS IN THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC SO IRAN OF 2026 IS NOT IRAN OF 2025 OR 2015 AND THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BACK OF THIS REGIME.

THE QUESTION HERE IS WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, BOMBS CAN DESTROY MINISTRY CAPABILITIES.

DEGRADE INFRASTRUCTURE BUT THEY CANNOT MANUFACTURE AN ALTERNATIVE.

THAT ALTERNATIVE DOES NOT EXIST ON THE GROUND.

SO ALTHOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEIR TORMENTERS PUNISHED AND ELIMINATED BUT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THIS WAR, THE ONLY FORCE THAT CAN EMERGE THAT COULD HOLD THE COUNTRY TOGETHER AGAIN ARE THOSE MEN WITH ARMS AND GUNS AND THAT IS UNFORTUNATELY THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT WAY BACK UNDER THE PRESIDENT WHO CAME AND ACTUALLY OVERTLY PROMISED A WHOLE MODERATED VERSION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC AN EVEN TALKED ABOUT ENTERING NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES?

THEN THERE WAS THE AXIS OF EVIL SPEECH THAT PRESIDENT BUSH DELIVERED LUMPING IRAN IN WITH NORTH KOREA AND IRAQ.

AND THE WHOLE THING JUST STOPPED AND THE REFORMERS IF PEOPLE BELIEVED IN THAT WERE DISCREDITED.

YOU KNOW, YOU STUDIED THAT PRETTY CLOSELY.

WAS THERE REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY TO MODERATE AND IMPROVE RELATION INS THE WEST IN THE EARLY 2,000S?

>> YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ANYONE THAT THE HISTORY OF U. S. IRAN RELATIONS IS REPLETE WITH MISCALCULATIONS ON BOTH SIDES.

IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A NEW BEGINNING.

AND WAS MISSED BECAUSE BOTH SIDES ALWAYS ALLOWED THE PERFECT TO BE THE ENEMY OF GOOD ENOUGH.

THAT THE MORE FRIENDLY TONE WAS NOT ENOUGH AND THE EXPECTATION WAS THAT IRAN WOULD CHANGE ITS REGIONAL POLICY.

THE UNITED STATES RARELY RECOGNIZED THAT IRAN WOULD HAVE ANY KIND OF LEGITIMATE SECURITY CONCERNS.

THE IRANIANS NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COULD PLAY A MORE CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE IN THE REGION AND BY HAVING DIRECT CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE UNITED STATES, THEY COULD CORRECT PER SPENCES ABOUT ITS POLICIES AND HOPES AND FEARS AND IT IS A VERY LONG HISTORY.

I THINK THE BIGGEST MOMENT OF SQUANDERED OPPORTUNITY, HOWEVER, IS REALLY 2016.

RIGHT AFTER NUCLEAR DEAL WAS NEGOTIATED AND IMPLEMENTED AND EVERYBODY AFTER TWO-AND-A-HALF YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS WAS EXHAUSTED AND FAILED TO BUILD ON THAT AGREEMENT BEFORE THE TIDE TURNED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RETURN TO OFFICE.

THERE COULD BE STEPS TOWARD NORMALIZATIONS OF RELATIONS.

INSTEAD, IRANIANS TOOK MORE AMERICAN CITIZENS HOSTAGE AND DOUBLED DOWN ON THE POLICY AND PRESIDENT OBAMA TURNED AROUND AND STARTED SELLING ARM TO IRAN'S NEIGHBORS.

THAT I THINK WAS IN AT LEAST THE PAST TWO DECADES THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT OF MISTAKE.

>> SPEAKING TO THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER LAST NIGHT.

HE WAS SAYING WE HAVE TAKEN OUT NOW THE CENTRIFUGE ABILITY.

THAT EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO START A NUCLEAR PROGRAM, THAW WOULDN'T HAVE THE MEANS TO DELIVER IT.

OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT WITH ALL THAT HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, THEY COULD DO SO WITH A FEW CENTRIFUGES.

I WANT YOU TO ANSWER THAT.

BUT ONCE THIS IS OVER IF THAT REGIME IS STILL IN PLACE, DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WILL DECIDE TO GO FOR THE BOMB?

>> WELL FIRST OF ALL, THE RELIGIOUS EDICT DIED IN PLACE WITH HIM.

GIVEN THE FACT THE COUNTRY HAS NOW PAID THE ECONOMIC PRICE OF A NUCLEAR WEAPON WITH YEARS OF SANCTIONS, AND HAS BEEN ATTACKED TWICE IN LESS THAN A YEAR, I THINK THERE IS PLENTY OF INTENT AND MOTIVATION TO TRY TO WEAPONNIZE IRAN'S NUCLEAR KNOW HOW.

THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO WITHOUT DETECTION AFTER THIS WAR.

BUT CHRISTIANE, WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE STOCKPILE IS SUFFICIENT FOR TEN WARHEADS.

ALSO CRUDE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND, IF IRAN MANAGES TO DO A TEST SO WE SEE A BOOM IN THE DESERT ONE DAY, WE WOULDN'T KNOW IF IRAN HAS MANAGED TO WEAPONNIZE MORE WARHEADS.

MAYBE HAVE DIRTY BOMBS OUT OF THAT STOCKPILE.

SO WE WOULD BE IN A SITUATION THAT WOULD CRATE ENOUGH NUCLEAR AMBIGUITY THAT IRAN WOULD BE ABLE TO SIT BEHIND THAT NUCLEAR SHIELD.

I THINK THIS WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED AN ABSOLUTE FAILURE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE FACT THAT THERE WAS A DIPLOMATIC PATH TO TRY TO TAKE THAT NUCLEAR MATERIAL AUTOOF IRAN.

IT WAS PUT ON THE TABLE ON THE SIDELINES OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN NEW YORK IN SEPTEMBER.

IT WAS PUT ON THE TABLE AGAIN DURING THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS THAT HAPPENED IN THE CITY THAT I'M SITTING IN ON FEBRUARY 26th.

>> THE OMANI FOREIGN MINISTER MEDIATING SAID THIS WAR IS THE BIGGEST MISCALCULATION OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, BUT QUICKLY IN 30 SECONDS, DON'T YOU THINK IRAN'S POLICIES THE LAST 47 YEAR HAVES BEEN REVEALED AS MASSIVE MISCALCULATIONS?

ATTACKS AGAINST THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL, HAMAS, THE WHOLE NUCLEAR AGGRESSIVE TALK ABOUT IT AND PROGRAM?

>> ABSOLUTELY IRAN HAS MISCALCULATED GRAVELY.

AND, I THINK IT ALLOWED ITS IDEOLOGY AND ITS DOMESTIC POLITICS TO BLIND IT.

BUT AT TEND OF THE DAY, THERE IS PLENTY OF THE BLAME TO GO AROUND.

THE U. S. MADE MISTAKES, IRAN MADE MISTAKES.

I THINK ISRAEL HAS ALSO MADE MISTAKES AND SO DID IRAN'S NEIGHBORS.

THIS FAILURE HAS MANY AUTHORS, CHRISTIANE.

>> AND AS ALWAYS, IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE TRYING TO PICK UP THE PIECES AND SEE WHAT KIND OF A LIFE THEY HAVE FOR THE FUTURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

> >> NOW THE MAGA MOVEMENT IS VERY FRACTURED OVER THE IRAN WAR, BUT THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES SOWING DIVISIONS WITHIN.

RAMPANT MY MISSOLE MYSOGYNY.

SAM LABELL WRITES ABOUT THE WOMEN LEAVEING THE NEW RIGHT.

AND HE IS SPEAKING TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR WALKING TO US.

>> I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> THE SHORT VERSION IS CONSERVATIVE WOMEN WHO HAVE BUYER'S REMORSE.

>> YEAH.

THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT.

>> HOW DID YOU GET ONTO THIS?

>> I HAVE A SORT OF GROUP OF SOURCES ON THE RIGHT THAT I TALK TO RELATIVELY FREQUENTLY FOR MY WORK.

FOR MY PODCAST AND MY REPORTING.

AND SO I'M KIND OF ALWAYS IN TOUCH WITH THEM TRYING TO GET A SENSE OF WHERE THINGS ARE AT.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN INTERNALLY.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF INTERNAL CONFLICT ON THE RIGHT WE WOULDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT IF NOT FOR PEOPLE DOING THIS KIND OF REPORTING.

IN THIS CASE T WAY IT CAME TO ME WAS REALLY LAST FALL AFTER NICK FUENTES, THIS PIP SQUEAK ANTISEMITIC INCEL CHARACTER, HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY TUCKER CARLSON AND A LOT OF THE FALL- OUT FROM THAT, THERE WAS SORT OF INTERNAL TO THE RIGHT A LOT OF DISSENSION OVER IT BUT A LOT OF THE FALL-OUT WAS ABOUT HIS ANTI-SEMITISM AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS RACISM.

WHEN I TALKED TO WOMEN ON THE RIGHT, PEOPLE I KNOW, THEY WERE FRUSTRATED THAT NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MAIN THING, THE KIND OF LEAST IRANIC AND MOST KIND OF OBVIOUS AND PAINFUL ASPECT OF FUENTES'S SELF-PRESENTATION IS THAT HE HATES WOMEN AND IT IS JUST SO APPARENT.

THEY WERE FRUSTRATED WHILE THE RIGHT WAS HAVING THIS INTERNAL DEBATE ABOUT WHERE TO DRAW THE LINES ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM AND RACISM, THEY WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SEXISM WHICH FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE HAS BECOME THE LIFE BLOOD OF THE MOVEMENT THAT THEY ARE A PART OF.

>> SO YOUR PIECE OPENS WITH SOMEBODY CALLED ANNA AND SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED.

BY HER REAL NAME FOR REASONS YOU ARE GOING TO TELL US BUT TELL US ANNA'S STORY.

>> ANNA IS A REPRESENTATIVE CHARACTER FOR CERTAIN KINDS OF YOUNG WOMEN WHO WAS ATTRACTED TO THE RIGHT DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM WHO WAS A VERY TALENTED WRITER, BECAME A POPULAR PUNDIT WORKING IN CONSERVATIVE INSTITUTIONS AND OFTEN WRITING ABOUT WOMEN AS A WOMAN, INCLUDING THIS KIND OF NARRATIVE THAT THE RIGHT WAS ADOPTING AT THE TIME THAT WOMEN ARE REALLY UNWELL, YOU KNOW, THAT FEMINISM HAS DIVERTED THEIR NATURAL MOTHERLY INSTINCTS INTO THIS QUEST FOR WORLDLY SUCCESS, AND NOW THAT THEY HAVE IT, WOMEN ARE USING THIS NEWFOUND AUTHORITY TO PUNISH MEN.

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING ANNA WAS WRITING BUT HER EXPERIENCE IS ONE THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF A LOT OF PEOPLE I TALKED TO IN THE PIECE.

OVER TIME, SHE STARTED TO SEE BASICALLY, SHE WAS SELLING PEOPLE THE ROPE TO HANG HERSELF.

SHE STARTED TO REALIZE THAT SHE WAS PARTICIPATING IN A MOVEMENT THAT WAS USING HER AND THAT IT WASN'T WORTH IT REALLY TO GET THIS KIND OF CAREER AND STATUS ON THE RIGHT AS THE RIGHT SORT OF BASICALLY MADE THEIR WHOLE PROCESS ABOUT PUNISHING WOMEN.

PUSHING THEM OUT OF PUBLIC LIFE AND THE WORKPLACE.

SHE START TODAY SEE THIS WAS WRONG AND SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF IT.

AND THAT IS WHERE SHE CAME TO ME AT THAT POINT, THIS MOMENT OF KIND OF ONE FOOT IN, ONE FOOT OUT.

NOT READY TO COME OUT AND SAY WHAT SHE WANTED TO SAY UNDER HER OWN NAME.

AND I THINK TO BE CLEAR, SHE IS NOT MAKING MONEY ON THE RIGHT ANYMORE.

SHE HAS LEFT THOSE POSITIONS SHE ONCE HAD.

HER MOTIVATION FOR KEEPING HER NAME OUT OF THE PIECE AND I DO BELIEVE THIS, IS OUT OF FEAR.

PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT NICK FUENTES WHO IS ONE OF THE ANTAGONISTS IN THIS PIECE, THEY SAY THEY WILL RAPE, DIE, AND KILL FOR NICK FUENTES.

THEY SAY THIS IRANICLY, BUT NONETHELESS, ANNE IS SOMEBODY WHO LIVES AROUND A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES.

SHE IS SOMEBODY WHO WAS VERY CONNECTED ON A PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL LEVEL WITH THIS MOVEMENT AND SHE FEARS RETALIATION.

>> AT WHAT POINT WOULD YOU SAY THE BREAK CAME FOR HER?

WAS IT HAVING KIDS HERSELF WHERE SHE REALIZED A, I DON'T WANT THAT LIFE FOR MY KIDS OR WAS IT REALIZING THAT BEING A MOTHER, BEING A TRAD WIFE WAS HARDER THAN IT LOOKS?

>> WE ARE COMBINING TWO STORIES A LITTLE BIT.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE TO, ALEX KASHUDA WHO IS NAMED IN THE PIECE, SHE DESCRIBES VERY VIVIDLY THAT IT WAS PARTIALLY HAVING KIDS WHERE SHE REALIZED THIS SORT OF TRAD LIFE TREND ON THE RIGHT WHERE WOMEN SHOULD WANT TO BE MOTHERS AND STAY HOME AND MAKE FOOD AND TEND THE GARDEN, THAT WAS RIDICULOUS, THAT WAS ABSURD BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A CAREER.

BUT ALSO, BECAUSE THE IDEA THAT SHE WOULD HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING FOR THE KIDS AN HER HUSBAND WOULD DO NONE OF IT WAS TOTALLY UNTENABLE.

IT WOULD NOT WORK.

IT KICKS THE TRAD OUT OF YOU REALLY FAST, SHE SAYS.

AND THAT WAS A BIG PART OF IT FOR HER, ALEX ALSO TALKS ABOUT WHEN SHE WAS ON THE RIGHT AND BEFORE SHE HAD KIDS, YOU KNOW, SHE ACCEPTED THE IDEA THAT FEMALE CODED THINGS WERE LOW STATUS AND THAT IS SOMETHING SHE EXPERIENCED AMONG THE MEN ON THE RIGHT.

ONCE SHE BECAME A MOTHER AND EXPERIENCED HER WOMANHOOD IN THAT WAY, SHE CEASED TO FEEL THAT WAY.

I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER IMPORTANT PART OF THIS.

WHICH IS THAT WHILE PEOPLE LIKE QUENTES AND ANDREW TATE AND THESE RED PILL AWFUL PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE ARE GOING TO BE AWFUL TO WOMEN.

WE ARE ADVERTISING IT.

OUR AUTHORITY WILL BE FICKLE AND VICIOUS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE THE TRADITIONALISTS WHO ARE SAYING WOMEN NEED TO BE RESUBJECT TO MALE AUTHORITY.

TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON THEM.

WE WILL TAKE THE ABILITY TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT LIFE AWAY FROM WOMEN.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE GOT HERE IS WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THE PIECE AS A PINCER MOVEMENT.

TRADITIONALISTS SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE AN INDEPENDENT LIFE.

YOU WILL BE FORCED INTO A MARRIAGE AND FORCED INTO A HOME.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, ON THE SORT OF RED PILL RIGHT, YOU HAVE PEOPLE SAYING AND, THE AUTHORITY OF MEN IS GOING TO BE AWFUL.

>> WHAT IS FASCINATING TO ME IS THAT I'M WONDERING WHY THEY DIDN'T FIGURE THIS OUT BEFORE.

THESE INCELS, THESE BRUTE FORCE GUYS, WHY WOULD ANYONE GO WITH THAT?

>> THE PROMINENCE OF THESE RED PILL, THE BRUTE FORCE GUYS IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT AND THE ACCEPTABILITY OF THEIR VIEWS HAS GROWN AND GROWN.

THEY UNDERMINE THE PLAUSIBILITY OF THE OLD CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN DEAL.

YOU KNOW.

BECAUSE THAT INVOLVES CERTAIN AMOUNT OF RECIPROCITY, THEY ARE SAYING NO, MEN DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING AND THEY CAN TREAT WOMEN AWFULLY AND NONETHELESS, WOMEN SHOULD SUBMIT TO THEIR AUTHORITY.

THAT BECAME MORE CLEAR IN VARIOUS SPHERES OF THE MAGA WORLD AND THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THESE WOMEN MOVING AWAY FROM IT.

>> WOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU THINK DOES YOUR REPORTING INDICATE THOSE ATTITUDES ARE?

HOW PREF PREVALENT ARE THEY AMONG THE MAGA MOVEMENT?

>> IT IS HARD TO JUDGE, ONE THING TO LOOK AT IS HOW INCREDIBLY POPULAR NICK FUENTES IS.

>> HOW POPULAR IS HE?

>> HE WAS BANNED FROM X AND WHEN HE WAS WELCOMED BACK BY ELON MUSK HIS AUDIENCE GREW FROM A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND TO WELL OVER A MILLION.

HE GETS MORE THAN A MILLION VIEWS ON MANY OF HIS STREAMS.

HIS LIVE STREAMS THAT HE POSTS ON RUMBLE.

AND I HAVE HEARD FROM SOURCES WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT THE YOUNGER PEOPLE THAT WORK THERE LISTEN TO HIM.

SO THIS IS NOT QUARANTINED TO JUST THE IDEA OF THE INCEL LOSER IN THE BASEMENT.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WITH ACTUAL POWER OVER POLICYMAKING IN THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT WHO ARE LISTENING TO THIS STUFF, ABSORBING IT AND TALKING ABOUT IT.

ANOTHER SOURCE WHO LIVES ON THE HILL, A CONSERVATIVE, A DEVOTED MAGA OPERATIVE, HE TOLD ME THAT ALL MEN ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS QUOTE UNQUOTE FEMINIZATION OF PUBLIC LIFE.

AND BASICALLY, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THERE ARE TOO MANY WOMEN INVOLVED IN POSITIONS OF POWER.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS I WRITE IN THE PIECE WHICH I THINK SORT OF DOES ENCAPSULATES THIS, IF YOU LISTEN AND YOU PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THE RIGHT, PARTICULARLY THE MAGA RIGHT IS DIAGNOSING, AT THE CENTER OF EVERY PROBLEM IS A WOMAN WITH TOO MUCH POWER.

>> AND HOW WIDESPREAD DO YOU THINK BASED ON YOUR REPORTING IS THIS DISILLUSIONMENT AMONG WOMEN WHO USED TO CONSIDER THEMSELVES PART OF THIS MOVEMENT?

>> THAT IS ALSO HARD TO JUDGE.

THE WOMEN I SPOKE TO SAY THAT EVERY SINGLE WOMAN INVOLVED IN CONSERVATIVE POLITICS KNOWS ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.

AND THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT WITH EACH OTHER.

WHETHER THEY HAVE DECIDED IT IS FINE, IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL, OR, THEY HAVE DECIDED IT IS A PROBLEM BUT I CAN'T LEAVE THIS IS MY CAREER AND LIVELIHOOD AND I HAVE POLITICAL GOALS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY HURT FEELINGSMENT WHATEVER THEIR RESPONSE TO IT IS, SOURCES I TALK TO SAY ALL WOMEN INVOLVED IN MAGA POLITICS ARE AWARE OF THIS PROBLEM AND YOU SEE IT SORT OF COME OUT IN LITTLE BITS AND PIECES EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

YOU HAVE THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTING ON WOMEN IN CONGRESS WHO ARE DISAPPOINTED BY MIKE JOHNSON'S LEADERSHIP SAYING HE IS TOO PATRIARCHAL.

YOU SAW IT WITH THE REVOLT OVER THE EPSTEIN FILES LED BY CONSERVATIVE WOMEN.

IN LITTLE GLIMPSES YOU CAN SEE THIS PROBLEM IS THERE BUT FOR THE MOST PART IN THIS OPERATIVE CLASS OF WOMEN, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT IN PRIVATE.

THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT IT IN GROUP CHATS.

COMPARING NOTES ABOUT BAD MEN THEY HAVE ENCOUNTERED IN THE MOVEMENT.

BUT THEY ARE NOT FOR THE MOST PART COMING OUT PUBLICLY AND CALLING FOR A RECKONING.

>> THIS IS WHITE PEOPLE I ASSUME.

THESE ARE ALL WHITE WOMEN RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> JUST BECAUSE I'M IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN CONTEXT, JUST, IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN HAVE JUST A LONG HISTORY OF BEING HEADS OF HOUSEHOLDS, COEQUAL PARTNERS.

YOU KNOW.

ESPECIALLY IN THE MODERN ERA.

>> YEAH.

AND SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE NOTED ABOUT THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON, IT IS MOSTLY WHITE WOMEN WHO GET THESE JOBS WORKING IN CONSERVATIVE POLITICS.

AND, WE CAN APPLAUD THEM FOR, YOU KNOW, COMING AROUND AND SEEING THAT SOUTH AMERICAISM THAT SEXISM IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND THIS IS MAYBE MAKING THEM CONSIDERING LEAVING CONSERVATIVE POLITICS IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

BUT IT IS FAIR TO SAY THEY HAVE TOLERATED AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RACISM WHICH WASN'T AFFECT THEM PERSONALLY AND IS NOT THE THING THAT HAS PUSHED THEM OUT OF THE MOVEMENT.

THIS MOVEMENT IS UNBELIEVABLY RACIST AND THAT WASN'T THE THING THAT CAUSED THESE WOMEN TO CHANGE THEIR MIND.

>> YEAH, BUT I'M STRUCK BY WHAT SOMETHING ELSE YOU SAID IN THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT NICK FUENTES SAYS GLORIFIES RAPE NOT JUST HIM.

BUT THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN BY FORCE IF NECESSARY.

WOMEN ARE HALF THE POPULATION.

IT IS ONE THING TO DEMONIZE A MINORITY GROUP.

YOU MAY NOT KNOW ANY MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP.

BUT ALL THESE MEN HAVE MOTHERS.

THEY ALL HAVE SISTERS.

SOME OF THEM HAVE DAUGHTERS AND IT IS JUST, IT IS INTERESTING AND I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

>> YES.

THESE MEN HAVE MOTHERS.

THEY HAVE SISTERS AND THEY MAY HAVE WIVES.

THEY MAY HAVE HAD GIRLFRIENDS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM I THINK AND THIS BECOMES A LITTLE PSYCHOANALYTIC, WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER A WOMAN WITH POWER, THEY ARE REMINDED OF SOME MOMENT WHERE THEY WERE HUMILIATED BY A WOMAN WITH MORE POWER OVER THEM.

WHETHER THAT IS A BOSS IN THEIR WORKPLACE WHO IS A WOMAN OR AN AUTHORITY FIGURE IN A CLASSROOM, A TEACHER, AND THE EXPERIENCE FOR A CERTAIN KIND OF FAR RIGHT MAN OF BEING SUBJECT TO FEMALE AUTHORITY IS TOTALLY INTOLERABLE.

AND IT MARKS THEM AND THEN WHEN THEY SEE SOMEONE, A WOMAN WITH POWER, A POLITICIAN, A WOMAN WITH POWER IN A CORPORATION OR ON TELEVISION EVEN, THEY ARE REMINDED OF THIS SORT OF PRIMORDIAL EXPERIENCE OF BEING HUMILIATED BY A WOMAN WITH POWER AND THEY HATE THEM.

IT IS NOT CRAZY TO SAY THESE COME FROM DEEP EXPERIENCES THAT MEN HAVE.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE HAD BAD EXPERIENCES IN KINDERGARTEN THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO PAY FOR?

IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> IT COULD BE JUST AS PATHETIC AS THAT.

IF YOU WATCH THE WAY PETE HEGSETH BEHAVES ON TELEVISION, HE SEEMS TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, REAL ANGER TOWARD WOMEN AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY OVER HIM.

AND THAT SEEMS TO MOTIVATE A LOT OF THE WAY HE BEHAVES.

WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT TRUMP WHICH IS WILD.

THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS, BUT, WE, YOU DON'T FORGET, IT IS POSSIBLE TO FORGET HIS COMING TO POWER WAS THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD TAPE AND DEFEATING HILLARY CLINTON WHO IS LIKE THE EMBLEMATIC FEMALE PROFESSIONAL IN THE MINDS OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.

ALSO THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

>> AND THEN KAMALA HARRIS AS WELL.

>> AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF MEN IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT.

TRUMP'S SUCCESS AND THE SATISFACTIONS OF IT ARE NOT ANGLEABLE FROM THE HUMILIATION OF HILLARY CLINTON AND KAMALA HARRIS AS WELL.

>> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT TRUMP IS HOW MANY WOMEN IN HIS ORBIT HAVE HAD SIGNIFICANT POWER.

HE DID APPOINT THE FIRST FEMALE CHIEF OF STAFF IN WHITE HOUSE HISTORY.

THAT IS A FACT.

HIS PRESS SECRETARY HE SEEM TO THINK HIGHLY OF IS A WOMAN.

THE HEAD OF ONE OF HIS LARGEST DEPARTMENTS KRISTI NOEM.

THAT IS ONE OF THE AGENCIES THAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR PROMINENCE IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

SHE DID HAVE THAT ROLE.

IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT HE DID CONSIDER WOMEN AS RUNNING MATES.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEW THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> I THINK THAT IS A GOOD POINT.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TRUMP AND THE MOVEMENT THAT HAS GROWN AROUND HIM.

AND I THINK WHATEVER WE WANT TO SAYABOUT TRUMP, HE HAS WON TWO NATIONAL ELECTIONS BECAUSE HE HAS A FEEL FOR HOW TO BUILD PLAUSIBLE MAJORITY FOR HIS POLITICS.

A LOT OF THESE RIGHT WING PEOPLE, THEIR PROJECT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

THEY ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN THIS AUDIENCE AND KEEP THEM RABID AND ANGRY AND CLICKING ON THEIR VIDEOS AND WATCHING THEM.

AND THERE IS TENSION BETWEEN THIS PART OF THE MOVEMENT THAT FEELS NO COMPUNCTION.

AND THE POLITICAL PROJECT OF TRUMP AND MAGA THAT NEEDS TO TRY TO WIN MAJORITIES.

AND YOU KNOW, WIN IN 2028.

WHOEVER THE CANDIDATE IS.

AND THERE IS A FEAR ABOUT THAT I THINK.

YOU ARE STARTING TO SEE PARTLY WHAT THIS PIECE IS ABOUT.

BUT IN OTHER SECTORS TOO THERE IS THIS FEAR OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN TRUMP LEAVES THE STAGE?

IF TRUMP IS NOT THERE, WILL JD VANCE HOLD THAT COALITION TOGETHER?

THAT'S THE FEAR I THINK.

THAT IS REPRESENTED BY ALL OF THIS CON TESTATION OVER WHETHER IT IS SECKISM OR THE CONVERSATIONS OVER ANTI- SEMITISM.

THIS IS THE FEAR.

AND CONSERVATIVE OPERATIVES, PEOPLE WORKING IN THE MOVEMENT DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE TRUMP DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR OR BE REMINDED OF THE FACT HE WILL NOT BE IN CHARGE FOREVER.

BUT THAT IS WHY THIS IS HAPPENING.

>> SAM ADLER-BELL, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, THIS WAS REALLY NICE.

> >> FINALLY, IT IS NEW YEAR'S EVE IN IRAN AND PARTS OF AFGHANISTAN, NORUZ IS CENTERED AROUND THE SPRING SOLSTICE OF RENEWAL, HOPE AND LIFE.

THIS YEAR, WAR CASTS A DARK SHADOW OVER THE CELEBRATIONS.

FOR OVER 3,000 YEARS, IRANIANS HAVE TAKEN PART IN THE FIRE FESTIVAL WHERE PEOPLE JUMP OVER SMALL FIRES AND SET OFF FIREWORKS.

IT IS MEANT AS A WAY OF CLEANSING.

BUT INSIDE, MORALE IS LOW.

MARKET THAT'S WOULD BE BUSTLING WITH HOLIDAY SHOPPERS ACQUIRED UNDER THE BOMBS, WHILE THERE IS HOPE, THE YEAR AHEAD IS BOUND BY AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER ON PB S. ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH AND GOOD-BYE