>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> A LOT OF THEM ARE VERY ANGRY.

EVERY REPUBLICAN TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

>> WHY?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> FROM THE IRAN WAR TO AFFORDABILITY TO A DROP IN VIOLENT CRIME RATES, COULD THESE ISSUES SWAY U. S. VOTERS IN THE UPCOMING U. S. MIDTERMS?

I SPEAK WITH DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN STEVE COHEN.

> >> THEN -- >> LOOK AT THE OVERALL ECONOMY, THINGS ARE REALLY, REALLY BOOMING.

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TOUTS A ROARING ECONOMY, BUT ARE THE WARNING SIGNS STARTING TO LIGHT UP?

FORMER TREASURY OFFICIAL BRAD SETSER JOINS US.

> >> PLUS -- >> ISRAELI BULLETS, HE TELLS US, WALLS COMPLETELY BLOWN OUT.

BULLET HOLES ABOVE WHERE HIS GRANDCHILDREN ONCE SLEPT.

>> MORE THAN 800,000 DISPLACED LEBANESE PEOPLE ARE RETURNING HOME AMID THE ISRAEL-HEZBOLLAH WAR.

CORRESPONDENT NADA BASHIR HAS A REPORT.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> I. C. E. HAS DEPLOYED THIS AROUND-THE-CLOCK DIGITAL NET FOR SPEECH THAT COULD ENDANGER THE AGENCY'S MISSION.

>> HOW I. C. E. IS WEAPONIZING SOCIAL MEDIA.

"WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTER HANNAH CRITCHFIELD TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> AND A WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

PATIENCE IS WEARING THIN AMONGST AMERICAN VOTERS AS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S COSTLY WAR WITH IRAN DRAGS ON.

YES, NOW INTO ITS SIXTH MONTH.

WITH LITTLE PROGRESS TOWARDS A SOLUTION, OIL PRICES CLIMB AND CLIMB, AND AMID THE ECONOMIC STRAIN OF THE CONFLICT, THERE IS GROWING FRUSTRATION TOWARDS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS DEMOCRATS APPEAR TO LEAD IN VOTER SUPPORT THREE MONTHS AHEAD OF THE NOVEMBER MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO A REUTERS/IPSOS POLL.

NOW AS THE PARTIES CAMPAIGN HARD, OF COURSE, ACROSS A RANGE OF ISSUES, AMERICANS CAN PERHAPS BREATHE A SIGH OF RELIEF WHEN IT COMES TO ONE KEY DOMESTIC CONCERN, CRIME.

A NEW REPORT BY THE COUNCIL ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE SHOWS A NOTABLE DROP ACROSS LARGE CITIES IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR, WITH HOMICIDES REACHING THEIR LOWEST LEVEL SINCE AT LEAST 1900.

THIS TREND, OF COURSE, ISN'T DUE TO THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF ONE PARTICULAR POLICY BUT LIKELY THE RESULT OF A RANGE OF FACTORS.

TRANSLATION, IT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE FIRST BELIEVE.

STEVE COHEN IS A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN AND A LONG-TIME LAWMAKER WHO SITS ON BOTH THE JUDICIARY AND INTELLIGENCE HOUSE COMMITTEES.

HE IS GOING TO TRY AND HELP US BREAK ALL OF THIS DOWN.

AND I HEAR YOU, SEE YOU THAT THIS IS IN FACT MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE HAVE AT FIRST BLUSH.

I WANT TO GO FIRST TO THE FACT THAT YOU DO SIT, THOUGH, FIRST ON THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO ANY KIND OF A RESOLUTION IN IRAN?

I THINK WHAT IS MOST CONCERNING FOR SO MANY AMERICANS IS WHEN THEY REALLY SEE THAT PERHAPS AMERICA HAS ONE ARM TIED BEHIND ITS BACK WHEN IT COMES TO ORDNANCE AND MUNITIONS.

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED THAT YOU CAN SHARE?

>> WELL, THERE'S NOT THAT MUCH THAT I'VE LEARNED THAT I CAN SHARE.

IF I TOLD YOU, I'D HAVE TO SHOOT YOU.

>> THAT'S NOT EXACTLY REASSURING.

THAT'S NOT EXACTLY REASSURING.

BUT LISTEN, CNN AND OTHER GREAT PUBLICATIONS, WE ALREADY HAVE OUR OWN REPORTING, RIGHT?

AND THEY SHOW THAT EVEN SENIOR U. S. MILITARY COMMANDERS ARE WARNING THAT THE PENTAGON'S MUNITIONS ARE DANGEROUSLY LOW.

>> WELL, I THINK THE COMMON ACCEPTED PERSPECTIVE IS THAT MUNITIONS ARE LOW AND WE'VE USED AN ABUNDANCE OF MATT MATERIEL IN IRAN AND THERE COULD BE PROBLEMS IF WE TRY TO HELP DEFEND TAIWAN FROM COMMUNIST CHINA.

IF WE TRY, LIKE WE SHOULD TO TRY TO HELP UKRAINE STOPPING THE RUSSIAN ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN POPULATION --IT IS A GENOCIDE IN UKRAINE.

BUT THESE ARE WAR CRIMES THAT RUSSIA'S CONTINUING TO DEDUCT.

AND WE'RE NOT HELPING UKRAINE, WHICH WE SHOULD WITH WEAPONS.

SO, YEAH, THERE IS NO QUESTION WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WEAPONS, AND THERE IS NO QUESTION WE HAVE PROBLEMS.

WE SAY WE HAVE A HAND TIED BEHIND OUR BACK.

WE HAVE BOTH HANDS TIED BEHIND OUR BACK BECAUSE HEGSETH HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

HE WAS A TV GUY, AND HE GOT HIRED JUST LIKE KRISTI NOEM AND THE GUY FROM FLORIDA WHO GOT HIRED TO BE THE SECOND D. A. , ATTORNEY GENERAL.

THAT WAS AFTER THEY WANTED MATT GAETZ.

THIS GUY JUST HIRES PEOPLE BASED ON HOW THEY LOOK.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, HE DOESN'T TAKE THAT SAME POLICY WHEN IT COMES TO HIMSELF, BECAUSE IF HE LOOKED IN THE MIRROR, HE WOULDN'T HAVE RUN.

>> SO CONGRESSMAN, THOUGH, THIS REMAINS A PROBLEM FOR AMERICANS, INCLUDING YOU, AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

NOW, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT COME ON AND ILLUSTRATE THE PROBLEM.

BUT WHAT IS THE SOLUTION HERE?

BECAUSE AMERICA IS AT WAR WITH IRAN.

I DO WANT TO SAY THAT TRUMP HAS PRIVATELY COMPLAINED THAT DISCLOSURES, THE DISCLOSURES THAT YOU AND I ARE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW ON THOSE DWINDLING STOCKPILES MAKE THE U. S. LOOK WEAK IN HIS OPINION.

AND TRUMP WROTE ON TRUTH SOCIAL, "THE U. S. HAS MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MUNITIONS, ESPECIALLY OF CERTAIN TYPES.

ADDITIONALLY, LARGE AMOUNTS ARE BEING MANUFACTURED AND SHIPPED TO THE U. S. AS NEEDED.

DEFENSE COMPANIES ARE BUILDING THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PLANTS AND FACTORIES IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY. "

IS THERE ANYTHING IN WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAYS THAT IS THE SOLUTION HERE, THAT, YOU KNOW, REASSURES YOU THAT ALL IS NOT LOST?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK ALL IS LOST.

WE'LL PROBABLY GO INTO MAXIMUM SPEED IN TRYING TO RAMP UP THE PRODUCTION OF WEAPONS, MISSILES, PLANES, ET CETERA THAT WE NEED.

AND WE'LL CATCH UP.

BUT IT WILL BE AT AN ADDITIONAL EXPENSE, AND IT WILL JUST RUN UP THE DEFICIT.

IT'S TREMENDOUS ALREADY, IN THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, AND THE COUNTRY IS IN DANGER.

PINA PIGEONS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST IN AMERICA WITH A PRESIDENT WHO IS NOT CAPABLE OF BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I SAW BESCHLOSS POST TODAY FROM RICHARD NIXON ANNOUNCING HIS RESIGNATION AS PRESIDENT.

AND THEY WERE SHOWING EARLY CLIPS.

AND I LOOKED AT NIXON, AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, HE WAS A CROOK IN WATERGATE, AND HE HAD SOME NASTY THINGS TO SAY ABOUT LOTS OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA, BUT HE KNEW POLICY, AND HE KNEW NATIONAL AFFAIRS, AND HE KNEW FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ABOUT TRUMP.

>> BUT HE HAS BEEN ELECTED PRESIDENT, AND HE WILL REMAIN PRESIDENT UNTIL THE END OF HIS TERM IN 2028.

THIS BECOMES VERY SERIOUS, RIGHT, AS SO MANY AMERICANS SAY THAT ONCE AMERICA GOES TO WAR, PRETTY MUCH YOU GOT TO BE ROOTING FOR YOUR TEAM, RIGHT?

I MEAN, I GUESS I'M JUST A BIT CONFUSED AS YOUR POSTURE HERE.

YOU'RE ON THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT YOU HEAR, BUT WHEN YOU DO HEAR WHAT YOU HEAR, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE SOLUTION IS NOW?

HOW DOES AMERICA GET OUT OF THIS THING?

>> WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED.

WE HAVE TO HAVE OUR DEFENSE STOCKPILES REPLENISHED.

AND WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR GOOD GENERALS, WHICH WE'RE GETTING RID OF MANY OF OUR GOOD GENERALS.

THAT'S UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE OF THEIR ATTACK ON DEI AND THEY FIRED A LOT OF WOMEN AND A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO WERE TOP LEADERS.

THERE WAS A MAN WHO WAS DESTINED TO BE HEAD OF THE MILITARY JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, AND THEY FIRED HIM FOR SOMETHING.

AND EVERYBODY LOVED HIM.

THERE IS SOME CRAZY THINGS GOING ON IN OUR GOVERNMENT, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO STOP BECAUSE TRUMP DOESN'T --HE DOESN'T DO ABOUT-FACES.

>> IN TERMS OF THE IRAN/CONTRA -- >> I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE FUTURE.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY.

I THINK THE NEXT TWO YEARS ARE VERY SERIOUS.

NOT ONLY INTERNATIONALLY, WHICH THEY ARE, BUT DOMESTICALLY.

AND I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF TRUMP TRIES TO DO SOMETHING WITH THE ELECTIONS IN NOVEMBER, WITH I. C. E. AND FEDERAL AGENTS AT THE POLLS TO TRY TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE AND TRY TO CHANGE THE RESULTS.

AND TO CLAIM ON JANUARY 3 IF THE HOUSE IS A DEMOCRAT, WHICH I THINK IT WILL BE, THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THEM SEATED AND THAT OUR NEW U. S. ATTORNEY GENERAL WILL DO WHAT TRUMP TELLS HIM TO DO AND WE'LL HAVE A REAL CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS ON JANUARY 3rd OF 2027.

>> I DO WANT TO RETURN TO THE ISSUE AT HAND WITH THE WAR.

IT'S BEEN ALMOST SIX MONTHS SINCE IRAN STARTED THIS WAR.

STRAIT OF HORMUZ STILL ISN'T OPEN.

>> DID IRAN START THE WAR?

WHEN DID IRAN START THE WAR?

I THOUGHT THIS IS A WAR WE STARTED.

>> PARDON ME.

I MIGHT HAVE MISSPOKEN.

MY POINT IS THE PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO SAY THAT THERE WAS A REASON THAT HE STARTED THIS WAR, AND THAT'S THE FACT TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN DOES NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

SO THE STRAIT STILL IS NOT REOPENED.

DO YOU THINK IRAN HAS A STRATEGIC WIN HERE?

AND IF IT DOES, I'M GOING REPEAT WHAT I SAID TO YOU BEFORE, YOU CAN'T BE HOPING THAT'S THE CASE, EVEN IF IT IS GOOD FOR DEMOCRATS POLITICALLY.

>> OH, I'M NOT THINKING OF IT IN TERMS OF DEMOCRATS.

IT'S JUST A REALITY.

AND I DO HOPE THAT WE CAN EXTRACT OURSELVES WITHOUT TOO MUCH WAR.

BUT WE'LL BE LUCKY TO GET A DRAW OUT OF THIS.

RIGHT NOW IF WE CAN GET THE STRAITS OF HORMUZ OPEN WHICH THEY WERE OPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S LIKE TOUCHDOWN.

WE'RE NOT GOING GET THE NUCLEAR FISSION THAT THEY HAVE.

THEY PROBABLY MOVED IT ALREADY DEEP UNDERNEATH THE MOUNTAINS.

BUT THEY MOVED IT, I SUSPECT.

THEY'VE GOT A WORSE LEADERSHIP TEAM THAN THEY HAD BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

WE KILLED SO MANY OF THE LEADERS.

HOW CAN YOU EXPECT A MAN WHOSE FATHER WAS MURDERED ON DAY ONE TO BE A NICE CONCILIATORY GUY?

I DON'T HAVE ANY DEFINITE PROOF OF THIS, BUT APPARENTLY HE IS DISFIGURED AND DAMAGED GREATLY FROM THAT ATTACK.

HE IS NOT GOING TO THINK WELL OF TRUMP.

THE IRANIANS HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT WE WERE THE SATAN.

AND IF WE WERE SATAN BEFORE WE KILLED HIS FATHER AND DISFIGURED HIM AND KILLED A FEW OTHER MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, YOU'RE EVEN SUPER SATAN NOW.

WE'RE GOING HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IRAN FOR A LONG TIME, THE REST OF MY LIFE.

PROBABLY THE REST OF YOUR LIFE TOO.

>> DEFINITELY A SOBERING OPINION YOU HAVE THERE FOR AMERICANS AND ANYONE LOOKING IN ON HOW THIS CONFLICT IS UNFOLDING.

I DO WANT TO PIVOT NOW TO THE FOCUS OF ANOTHER ONE OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS THAT YOU HAVE WHICH IS CRIME AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE FOLLOWING THE HISTORIC 33% INCREASE IN HOMICIDE FROM 2019 TO 2020.

IN 2025, THE NATIONAL HOMICIDE RATE WILL LIKELY BE AT ITS LOWEST LEVEL SINCE 1900.

HOMICIDES, CARJACKINGS, RESIDENTIAL BURGLARIES, CARJACKINGS DROPPED BY MORE THAN 50% COMPARED TO THEIR PEAKS OVER THE PAST NINE YEARS.

FROM WHAT YOU KNOW OF YOUR WORK ON COMMITTEE, WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING?

AND DO YOU BELIEF IT IS SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE?

>> WELL, INDEED IT'S SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE.

WE'VE GOT A LARGE HIGH CRIME RATE IN WASHINGTON, D. C. AND MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE, THE TWO CITIES THAT I LIVE IN MOSTLY.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

AND THE CRIME RATES ARE STILL TOO HIGH.

THEY'VE GONE DOWN NOT BECAUSE OF ANY FEDERAL TASK FORCE, BUT BECAUSE OF LOCAL POLICING AND THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT BEYOND -- THERE WAS A REAL RISE DURING COVID TIMES.

AND COVID PEAKS HAVE COME DOWN GREATLY.

WHY THEY COME DOWN TO THE 1900 LEVELS IS KIND OF HARD FOR ME TO FATHOM.

I SAW SOME REPORT WHERE SOMEBODY SAID BECAUSE OF WHAT POLICE HAVE DONE AND I. C. E. HAVE DONE, THE PEOPLE DISTRUST THE POLICE MORE AND SO THERE IS LESS CRIME.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE MUCH SENSE THAT IF THEY DISTRUST THE POLICE, YOU'LL HAVE LESS CRIME.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS A GOOD ANSWER, AND I DON'T THINK THE PUBLIC IS JUST ALL OF THE SUDDEN BECOMING MUCH MORE MR.

ROGERS AND TRYING TO BE GOOD AND MAKE THE NEIGHBORHOOD CLEAN AND NICE.

>> I AM CURIOUS AS TO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING THERE IN MEMPHIS.

IN FACT, POLICE THERE SAY IN 2025, THERE WAS A 26% DECREASE IN MURDERS, 22% DROP IN AGGRAVATED ASSAULT, 31% DECREASE IN ROBBERIES, CARJACKINGS DOWN BY ALMOST HALF.

THOSE ARE THE STATS.

BUT CRIME STILL I'M SURE YOU'LL AGREE WITH ME REMAINS A POLITICAL ISSUE.

I MEAN, WHAT ARE YOUR CONSTITUENTS TELLING YOU?

BECAUSE SOMETIMES THEY LOOK AT THESE STATS, AND THEY WOULD TEND TO SAY THAT THEY ARE SAFER.

AND YET PERHAPS YOUR CONSTITUENTS ARE TELLING YOU THEY DON'T FEEL ANY SAFER.

>> MOST OF MY CONSTITUENTS DON'T FEEL ANY SAFER, AND I DON'T FEEL ANY SAFER.

I KNOW THAT THE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS HAD SOME IMPROVEMENTS IN SOME OF THE OPERATIONS, AND CRIME RATES WERE GOING DOWN BEFORE THE TASK FORCE CAME HERE.

MARK TWAIN WAS KNOWN TO SAY THEY'RE LIARS, THERE ARE DAMN LIARS AND THERE ARE STATISTICIANS.

AND THESE REPORTS ARE ALL COMING FROM STATISTICIANS AFTER THEIR COMMUNITIES HAD GOTTEN TERRIBLE RATINGS FOR HIGH CRIME RATES.

SO MAYBE THEY'RE JUST NOT REPORTING AS WELL.

>> THAT IS, AGAIN, A FAIRLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SOBERING ASSESSMENT THAT YOU HAVE OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN MEMPHIS ITSELF.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GETTING THE DATA FROM.

>> THEY GET IT FROM THE CRIME COMMISSION AS WELL AS THEIR OWN DATA.

AND YOU CAN CLASSIFY CRIMES IN DIFFERENT MANNERS.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS TO CLASSIFY WHAT'S A VIOLENT CRIME.

THERE ARE CLASSIFICATIONS THEY'RE IN THAT THEY CAN USE.

BUT THIS IS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

SO IT WOULDN'T JUST BE THE MEMPHIS POLICE DEPARTMENT.

BUT EVERY NIGHT WHEN YOU SEE THE NEWS, SOMEBODY ELSE IS GETTING MURDERED.

IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE.

TRUMP CAME HERE, AND I THINK IT WAS IN MAY OR APRIL, AND HE SAID IN A MONTH IN MEMPHIS, WE'LL HAVE NO CRIME WHATSOEVER.

HE SAID THE SAME THING ABOUT WASHINGTON, D. C. ABOUT SIX MONTHS AGO.

IT JUST RIDICULOUS.

>> CONGRESSMAN, WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.

I DO WANT TO NOTE THAT YOU ARE NOT RUNNING AGAIN FOR OFFICE.

GIVEN THERE ARE SOME HIGHLIGHTS THERE IN TERMS OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH AFFORDABILITY, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH CRIME, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE MOST SALIENT POINT IN THE MIDTERMS GOING FORWARD FROM WHERE YOU SIT, EVEN THOUGH I STRESS YOU'RE NOT RUNNING AGAIN?

>> I THINK AFFORDABILITY.

I THINK PEOPLE GO TO THE GROCERY STORE AND SEE THE PRICES VERY, VERY HIGH.

I SEE THEM MYSELF WHEN I GO TO THE STORE.

IT'S ABSURD THE PRICES THEY HAVE.

IT USED TO BE YOU COULD GET A STEAK AND THE PRICE WAS A POUND.

NOW IT'S FOR THE STEAK AND MAYBE A 12-OUNCE PORTION.

SO THEY CONFUSE YOU SOMETIMES WITH NOT PUTTING ON THE PRICE PER POUND.

BUT EVERYTHING IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

AND PEOPLE ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE, TAKING CARE OF THEIR HOUSING NEEDS AND THEIR HEALTH CARE NEEDS.

HEALTH CARE NEEDS ARE UNBELIEVABLY HIGH.

I JUST HAD A TOOTH EXTRACTED LAST WEDNESDAY, AND IT WAS $5500 FOR AN EXTRACTION AND A BRIDGE.

$5500.

>> AGAIN, IT IS WHAT AMERICANS -- >> EXPENSIVE.

>> IT IS AMERICANS WITHOUT HEALTH OR DENTAL BENEFITS PUT UP WITH EVERY DAY.

STEVE COHEN WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> PAULA, THANK YOU.

HAVE A GOOD ONE.

>> SO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THE U. S. ECONOMY IS IN A VERY GOOD PLACE.

BUT THERE ARE SOME WORRYING INDICATORS THAT WARRANT A CLOSER LOOK.

NOW THE FED, STILL CAUTIOUS, STILL REFUSING TO CUT INTEREST RATES AS THE U. S. PRESIDENT DEMANDS.

AND THERE IS THE RARE INTERVENTION IN THE JAPANESE YEN, A MOVE AIMED AT PREVENTING A SELL-OFF OF U. S. TREASURY BONDS.

DOES THAT SHOW REAL FRAGILITY IN THE U. S. BOND MARKET, TYPICALLY A SAFE HAVEN FOR INVESTORS?

AND WHY SHOULD THIS MATTER TO YOU AND I?

WE WANT TO BRING IN BRAD SETSER.

HE WAS A SENIOR ADVISER TO THE U. S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE AND HAS WORKED IN THE U. S. TREASURY.

HE IS NOW A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR INVITING ME ON.

>> I WANT TO SET THE TABLE HERE FIRST WITH KEVIN HASSETT SAYING THINGS ARE REALLY BOOMING, IN HIS WORDS.

FIRST I WANT TO PLAY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

LISTEN.

>> RIGHT NOW OUR COUNTRY IS DOING BETTER THAN IT'S EVER DONE.

WHEN I SEE POLLS ON THE ECONOMY, I SHOULD HAVE 150%, NOT 100%, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE GREATEST --THIS IS THE GOLDEN AGE OF AMERICA, WHICH IS BEING BUILT NOW IN THIS COUNTRY, HAS NEVER, EVER BEEN BUILT.

AND WE'RE REALLY --WE ARE LITERALLY IN THE GOLDEN AGE OF AMERICA.

>> ALL RIGHT.

HOW ABOUT IT?

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS ECONOMY UNDER DONALD TRUMP?

>> LOOK, I THINK MOST AMERICANS WOULD ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STATEMENTS.

PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIGHER PRICES.

THAT'S NOT A NEW CONCERN.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A VERY STRONG DIVIDE BETWEEN THOSE PARTS OF THE ECONOMY THAT ARE BENEFITTING FROM AN ENORMOUS WAVE OF INVESTMENT AND DATA CENTERS AND ALL THE KIT NEEDED TO BUILD OUT THE AI SUPPOSED REVOLUTION, AND THE REST OF THE ECONOMY, WHICH IS NOT ACTUALLY BOOMING.

AND SOME PEOPLE ARE CLEARLY FEELING SQUEEZED WITH PRICES UP MORE THAN THEIR SALARIES ARE UP.

>> WE DO WANT TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE DATA ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

DONALD TRUMP AND HIS TEAM HAVE PROMISED 5, 6% GDP GROWTH.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT LAST READING.

THE ECONOMY GREW 2.

1% IN THE FIRST QUARTER, AND 1.

5% IN THE SECOND QUARTER.

WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME OF THE DATA NOW GOING BACK TO 2021.

I MEAN, WHERE DO YOU BELIEVE THIS GROWTH IS HEADED?

AND, AGAIN, THERE IS THE QUESTION OF HOW MUCH AI IS CONTRIBUTING TO ALL OF THIS.

>> I MEAN, I THINK 2% IS A REASONABLE GROWTH RATE FOR THE U. S. ECONOMY.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE ISN'T AS MUCH IMMIGRATION AS THERE USED TO BE.

THERE IS NOT AS MUCH LABOR FORCE GROWTH.

SO THAT IS A REASONABLE GROWTH RATE.

IT IS NOT A BOOM.

AND I THINK IT IS PRETTY CLEAR THAT A MEANINGFUL PORTION OF THAT GROWTH IS COMING FROM AI AND AI-RELATED INVESTMENTS.

THOUGH IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT A LOT OF THE AI INVESTMENT IS BEING SPENT ON IMPORTED SEMICONDUCTORS.

SO IT'S SPILLING OVER TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

IT'S ALL NOT JUST BENEFITTING THE U. S. WITHOUT THAT, I THINK WE WOULD PROBABLY BE IN A PERIOD OF ACTUALLY SUB-PAR GROWTH.

>> BUT GROWTH NONETHELESS.

I THINK MANY AMERICANS ARE FEELING THAT, BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T FEEL THAT THE ECONOMY IS AS ROBUST AS THE DATA, GIVEN THE DATA AT 2% AND CHANGE.

I DO WANT TO GET TO TRUMP'S TWO MAJOR POLICIES, THOUGH, ON TARIFFS AND THE IRAN WAR.

AND THIS GETS TO THE AFFORDABILITY CRISIS.

IF WE LOOK AT INFLATION HERE, LOOK, INFLATION WAS VERY HIGH AFTER THE PANDEMIC.

WE CAN SEE THAT.

AND YET IT CAME DOWN, BUT IT IS STUBBORN.

IT IS STICKY.

IT IS AT 3 AND 4%.

AND WHAT IS CRUCIAL HERE IS THE FACT THAT REAL WAGES, WHAT PEOPLE ARE EARNING, IS NOT KEEPING UP WITH INFLATION.

HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS GOING FORWARD?

AND HOW DO YOU EXPECT THE FEDERAL RESERVE, KEVIN WARSH, THE NEW FED CHAIR THERE, TO DEAL WITH IT?

>> WELL, I DO THINK IT IS FOR MOST AMERICANS, IT'S A PROBLEM WHEN PRICES ARE UP FASTER THAN THEIR WAGES.

PEOPLE WANT WAGES TO GROW FASTER THAN THEIR PRICES.

THAT'S A REASONABLE EXPECTATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE'S ONE SECTOR THAT IS BOOMING AND THERE ISN'T A BROAD- BASE BOOM, THE ECONOMY DOESN'T FEEL GREAT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

IT'S A CHALLENGE FOR THE NEW CHAIR BECAUSE STICKY, HIGH INFLATION ACTUALLY SUGGESTS A CASE FOR RATE HIKES.

IT WILL DEPEND ON HOW THE DATA EVOLVES.

AND THAT'S AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE PRESIDENT WANTS, AND IT'S A LITTLE BIT 59 ODDS WITH HOW MANY PEOPLE FEEL.

I MEAN, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO BUY A HOME, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY WANT RATES TO GO UP.

BUT RIGHT NOW THE AGGREGATE DATA, DECENT GROWTH, NOT SPECTACULAR GROWTH, ABOVE TARGET PRICES TENDS TO POINT TOWARDS RATE HIKES.

>> AND YET HE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION, AND THIS LEADS US, QUITE FRANKLY, TO THE BOND MARKET.

I WANT TO BRING UP THE MORTGAGE RATES, WHICH IS A 30-YEAR FIXED RATE.

I'LL TELL YOU WHY I ALWAYS LOOK AT THIS.

I BELIEVE THIS IS REALLY WHAT IS KEEPING THE UNITED STATES FROM EVEN GROWING MORE.

AND PERHAPS YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH ME.

BUT WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT INTEREST RATES THAT ARE STUBBORNLY --A 30- YEAR FIXED MORTGAGE IS STUBBORNLY ABOVE 6%, NEARING 7%, AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FOR A WHILE, HOW DO YOU READ THAT IN THE BOND MARKET?

BECAUSE I DO WANT TO GET THEN TO THE JAPANESE INTERVENTION, BECAUSE IT IS ALL LINKED.

BUT IF WE JUST LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH MORTGAGE RATES RIGHT NOW.

>> LOOK, MORTGAGE RATES ARE A LOT HIGHER THAN THEY WERE DURING THE LOW FOR LONG PERIOD AFTER THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS.

THAT IS CLEARLY MAKING IT HARD FOR MANY PEOPLE TO AFFORD HOMES.

MONETARY POLICY IS CURRENTLY SOMEWHAT RESTRICTIVE.

THAT'S WHY MORTGAGES ARE HIGH.

THAT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY TEN-YEAR TREASURY RATES ARE HIGH.

NOT THE ONLY REASON.

BUT IT IS INDEED HOW UNFORTUNATELY HOW MONETARY POLICY WORKS.

MONETARY POLICY WORKS THROUGH INTEREST RATES.

IT WORKS THROUGH LONG-TERM INTEREST RATES.

IT WORKS THROUGH MORTGAGES.

AND THAT'S THAT HIGHER LEVEL OF MORTGAGES IS INDEED SLOWING PARTS OF THE ECONOMY.

>> WHEN WE GET TO WHERE IT'S GOING GO NEXT, THOUGH, AND YOU MENTION MONETARY POLICY, THAT'S WHAT THE MARKETS DO.

THAT'S WHAT THE FED DOES.

WHAT ABOUT FISCAL POLICY?

HOW MUCH IS THAT A COMPONENT RIGHT NOW?

WE HAD THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL IN THE UNITED STATES.

ARGUABLE IN TERMS OF WHAT AMERICANS ARE SEEING FROM THAT.

BUT SPENDING IN GOVERNMENT STILL REMAINS QUITE HIGH.

CONTINUES TO ADD TO BOTH THE DEFICIT AND THE DEBT.

>> LOOK, WE'RE HEADING BACK TO A FISCAL DEFICIT OF ABOUT 6% OF GDP.

THAT'S VERY HIGH FOR AN ECONOMY THAT IS NOT IN REAL TROUBLE.

IT'S VERY HIGH FOR AN ECONOMY THAT'S KIND OF GROWING MORE OR LESS AT POTENTIAL, AND IS VERY HIGH, FRANKLY, FOR AN ECONOMY WHEN BIG PARTS OF THE ECONOMY, ALL THE HYPER SCALERS, ALL THE PEOPLE INVESTING IN DATA CENTERS ARE INVESTING A LOT OF MONEY TOO.

SO YOU HAVE THE GOVERNMENT BORROWING A LOT.

YOU HAVE NOW SOME OF THE INVESTMENT IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND DATA CENTERS FINANCED BY CORPORATE BORROWING, AND THAT'S CERTAINLY PUTTING PRESSURE ON LONGER TERM RATES.

IT'S ALSO ADDING DEMAND TO THE ECONOMY AND MAKING IT HARD FOR THE FED TO ACHIEVE THE RATE CUTS THAT THE PRESIDENT WANTS.

SO THERE IS A TENSION BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT'S FISCAL POLICY, WHICH PUSHES DEMAND UP, PUSHES --CREATES A LITTLE BIT OF INFLATIONARY PRESSURE, KEEPS PRESSURE ON THE FED TO KEEP RATES HIGHER, AND HIS DESIRE FOR LOWER INTEREST RATES, UNQUESTIONABLY.

>> SO BRAD, I DO WANT TO GET TO THE VERY FINANCIAL FOUNDATIONS, THOUGH, THAT AUTOMATIC OF US ARE PINNING OUR HOPES ON.

FOR ANYBODY IN THE WORLD, IT IS THE U. S. ECONOMY THAT ANYONE HAS TO LOOK TO.

THIS CENTURY A GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS, A GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

NOW WE'VE GOT THIS WAR IN IRAN, WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE NO END.

WHERE DO YOU PUT THE RISK OF ANOTHER FINANCIAL CRISIS IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS?

>> MODEST, I WOULD SAY.

>> AND WHY IS THAT?

BECAUSE I WOULD ARGUE THAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT THERE ISN'T THE RESILIENCY THAT WE'VE HAD IN GLOBAL ECONOMIES IN YEARS PAST.

SO WHY IS THE RISK MODEST?

AND ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT CENTRAL BANKERS AROUND THE WORLD, THAT GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD COULD HANDLE IT?

>> LOOK, I DON'T HAVE AS MUCH CONFIDENCE THAT WE HAVE THE MOST EFFICIENT SYSTEM OF CRISIS RESPONSE ANYMORE.

I THINK WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF FRICTION, AND WE'VE SEEN THE U. S. INTRODUCE A LOT OF FRICTION INTO ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH KEY ALLIES, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO YOU NEED TO COOPERATE IN A CRISIS.

I THINK THE REASONS WHY I DON'T SEE AN IMMEDIATE RISK OF A FINANCIAL CRISIS ARE TWOFOLD.

ONE, THERE ISN'T RECENT EVIDENCE OF LARGE FISCAL DEFICITS CAUSING A FINANCIAL CRISIS IN THE GOVERNMENT IN G10 COUNTRIES.

IT CAN PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE REST OF THE ECONOMY.

YOU CAN BE FORCED TO RAISE RATES TO HIGH LEVELS, AND THAT CAN SLOW THE ECONOMY.

YOU MAY FIND IT DIFFICULT TO MANAGE PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT BOND MARKET, MAYBE PRESSURED TO DO THINGS YOU OTHERWISE DO NOT WANT TO.

BUT A CRISIS-CRISIS LIKE WE EXPERIENCED IN 2008, THAT TEND TO COMES FROM LEVERAGE IN THE BANKING SYSTEM, LEVERAGE IN THINGS LIKE THE HOUSING MARKET.

AND RIGHT NOW THERE ISN'T THAT LEVERAGE IN THE BANKING SYSTEM, IN THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

AS WE MENTIONED, HOUSEHOLDS AREN'T BORROWING THAT MUCH.

THAT GIVES THE SYSTEM A BIT MORE RESILIENCE.

AND FRANKLY, WE'RE LUCKY THAT THE COMPANIES THAT ARE DOING MOST OF THE INVESTING IN AI ARE INCREDIBLY PROFITABLE.

SO FOR NOW, THEY'RE STARTING TO BORROW, BUT THEY'RE MOSTLY FINANCING IT OUT OF THEIR OWN CASH FLOW.

WAIT A COUPLE OF YEARS, HAVE A LOT OF THE AI INVESTMENTS FINANCED BY DEBT, THAT'S WHEN I WOULD START TO WORRY.

BUT AS OF RIGHT NOW, I DON'T THINK WE'RE FACING THE RISK OF A FINANCIAL CRISIS.

I THINK WE'RE FACING THE RISK OF KIND OF A SQUEEZE.

A LOW GROWTH, HIGHER INTEREST RATES THAN WE LIKE, HIGHER OIL PRICES, HIGHER PRICES THAN WE LIKE THAT.

IS A DIFFERENT PROBLEM.

>> AGAIN, THOUGH, NOT UNRELATED TO WHAT WILL BE THE AI DISRUPTION.

AND I HEAR YOU ON THAT, THEY'RE NOT HIGHLY LEVERED, ALTHOUGH IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT GOOGLE HAS DONE RECENTLY, OR ALPHABET, I SHOULD SAY, OR CAL, PERHAPS WE MAY BE TURNING A CORNER EVEN ON THAT FINANCING.

>> YEAH, YEAH, WAIT, TWO, THREE YEARS AND I WILL CHANGE MY ASSESSMENT.

IT IS STILL -- IT IS STILL --WE ARE JUST AT THAT INFLECTION POINT WHEN FREE CASH FLOW NO LONGER IS FUNDING THE INVESTMENTS.

THAT IS IMPORTANT.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

I WANT TO GET TO SOMETHING THAT YOU DO A LOT OF WORK ON, AND THAT'S CURRENCIES.

TREASURY SECRETARY BESSENT SAID IN JAPAN, I WANT TO LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID TO CNBC EARLIER THIS MONTH.

LISTEN.

>> GIVEN THE SIZE OF THE ECONOMY AND GIVEN THE CONTRIBUTIONS IN THE GLOBAL SAVINGS MARKET, VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE A STABLE YEN THAT THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT UNDERSTANDS THAT, AND WE ARE PROUD TO STAND WITH THEM IN IMPLEMENTING THEIR POLICIES AND HELP THEM STABILIZE THE REGION.

>> SO I'M GOING TO NOTE THAT IN JUNE, YOU ACTUALLY CALLED FOR MORE COORDINATED ACTION TO RAISE THE VALUE OF THESE KEY ASIAN CURRENCIES.

WHY?

DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS INTERVENTION?

AND DO YOU THINK IT WAS DONE WELL BY THE TREASURY?

>> I DO AGREE THAT THE YEN WAS INCREDIBLY UNDERVALUED.

SO TOO THE KOREAN YUAN, ALTHOUGH THE YUAN HAS RALLIED A BIT SINCE JUNE.

SO TOO THE TAIWAN DOLLAR, SO TOO THE CHINESE YUAN.

REALLY UNDERVALUED CURRENCIES IN A REGION THAT NOW HAS THE WORLD'S LARGEST TRADE SURPLUS, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT STRANGE.

AND IT WAS IN A SENSE MAKING IT HARDER FOR THE GLOBAL ECONOMY TO FIND A NEW EQUILIBRIUM.

WHEN YOU HAVE WEAKER CURRENCIES IN THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE GENERATING THE WORLD'S BIGGEST SURPLUS, THE CURRENCY MARKET IS SAYING INVEST IN MANUFACTURING IN ASIA.

DON'T INVEST IN MANUFACTURING IN THE U. S. IT'S SAYING RUN BIGGER TRADE SURPLUSES IN ASIA.

DON'T REDUCE THE U. S. TRADE DEFICIT.

SO I DO THINK THERE WAS A WORRIED SET OF RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH EXTREMELY WEAK CURRENCIES ACROSS ASIA, NOT JUST IN JAPAN.

JAPAN, THE YEN AT 160 ACTUALLY GOT WEAKER THAN 160.

THAT'S A VERY, VERY WEAK YEN.

NOW THERE ARE REASONS FOR THE YEN'S WEAKNESS.

JAPAN HAS VERY LOW INTEREST RATES.

AND I DON'T THINK THIS WILL WORK OVER TIME UNLESS THE BANK OF JAPAN STARTS RAISING RATES AND IT WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO DO SO IN SEPTEMBER.

BUT AS A BRIDGE TO RATE HIKES, AS A WAY OF HELPING A FRIEND, AND I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY USEFUL FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH GENERALLY DOESN'T HELP FRIENDS, WHICH HAS SOMETIMES POKED FRIENDS IN THE EYE A LITTLE BIT, I THINK IT'S HELPFUL FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO BE WILLING TO HELP JAPAN AT A POINT WHEN THIS HAS A PLAUSIBLE CHANCE OF WORKING BECAUSE THE YEN STARTS OFF FROM SUCH AN UNDERVALUED POSITION.

BECAUSE JAPAN HAS A DECENT FISCAL SITUATION.

IT'S GOT A LOT OF DEBT.

SHOULD LOOK AT NET DEBT, NOT JUST GROSS DEBT.

BUT ITS FISCAL DEFICIT WAS DOWN TO 1% OF GDP.

IT MAY GO UP TO 2.

THAT'S WAY BELOW OUR FISCAL DEFICIT.

JAPAN HAS A BIG DISCOUNT SURPLUS, 5% OF GDP.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT THAT MUCH ON THE DEFICIT SIDE.

JAPAN HAS A TON OF FOREIGN ASSETS.

AND THE GOVERNMENT OF JAPAN CAN SELL ASSETS, ESERVES THAT IT BOUGHT FOR 80 NOW TO 160.

IN THE PROCESS, BECAUSE OF THE WAY JAPAN HOLDS ITS RESERVES, PART OF THE FINANCE MINISTRY'S BALANCE SHEET, NOT THE CENTRAL BANK'S BALANCE SHEET, THAT REDUCES REPORTED DEBT.

ALL THAT TO SAY THIS HAS A CHANCE OF WORKING.

IN ORDER FOR IT TO WORK, JAPAN WILL HAVE TO ADJUST ITS INTEREST RATES.

>> AND THAT IS KEY, RIGHT, AS YOU SAID IT WILL WORK IN THE SHORT-TERM.

IN THE LONG-TERM, THOUGH, USUALLY THE BOND MARKET HAS A WAY OF CORRECTING IN THE LONG- TERM FOR ALL THAT AILS DOMESTIC ECONOMIES.

BRAD SETSER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE ARE SMARTER FOR HAVING SPOKEN TO YOU AS WE DO A BIT OF A DEEP DIVE THERE ON ECONOMIC DATA.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE.

> >> AND NEXT WE DO WANT TO TURN TO LEBANON, WHERE ISRAEL CONTINUES TO STRIKE IN THE SOUTH, DESPITE A SHAKY CEASEFIRE AND TALKS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES LAST WEEK IN ROME.

NOW LOCALS ARE RETURNING HOME TO IN FACT RUBBLE AND DESTRUCTION.

THAT'S AFTER WEAKS OF INTENSE BOMBARDMENT THAT HAD FORCED THEM TO FLEE.

CORRESPONDENT NADA BASHIR HEARS FROM LEBANESE FAMILIES AS THEY BEGIN TO REBUILD THEIR LIVES.

>> Reporter: CLEARING THE DEBRIS OF A HOME NOW TURNED TO RUBBLE, THE RESULT OF A MONTHS' LONG ISRAELI MILITARY ASSAULT ON SOUTHERN LEBANON.

WHEN THE SHELLING STARTED, MY FAMILY FLED, THIS MAN SAYS.

AND WHEN I RETURNED, EVERYTHING WAS DESTROYED.

HIS FAMILY FLED THE VILLAGE OF ZOLTA, WHICH OVERLOOKS THE LITANI RIVER IN FEBRUARY AND ONLY NOW BEEN ABLE TO RETURN FOLLOWING THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI FORCES.

INSIDE WHAT REMAINS OF THEIR HOME, THE REMNANTS OF THIS WAR LAY SCATTERED.

ISRAELI BULLETS, HE TELLS US.

WALLS COMPLETELY BLOWN OUT.

BULLET HOLES ABOVE WHERE HIS GRANDCHILDREN ONCE SLEPT.

"WE WANT CALM.

WE WANT SECURITY.

WE WANT A STATE," HE SAYS.

"WE WANT TO BE PROTECTED BY THE MILITARY.

WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT.

BUT IF ISRAEL ATTACKS US, WE WILL ATTACK THEM. "

HE IS FAR FROM ALONE.

AMONG THE MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES BY THE WAR IN LEBANON.

ASSAM HASHAM SAYS HE AND HIS FAMILY RETURNED TO THE VILLAGE AS SOON AS THE MILITARY GAVE THEM THE ALL CLEAR AFTER MONTHS OF SHELTERING AT A SCHOOL IN BEIRUT.

"TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SCENE, THE DESTRUCTION.

THE ISRAELIS WERE SLEEPING HERE IN THIS ROOM, HASSAM SAYS.

THEY EVEN LEFT BEHIND FOOD AND WATER.

THROUGH SHATTERED GLASS AND CONCRETE, HASSAM TAKES US TO WHAT WAS HIS CHILDREN'S BEDROOM.

OUT IN THE DISTANCE HE SAYS ISRAELI TANKS ARE STILL POSITIONED.

"YOU CAN SEE THEM RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, JUST A FEW HUNDRED METERS AWAY," HE SAYS.

ACROSS ZOLTA, THE SCARS OF THIS DEADLY CONFLICT REMAIN, HOMES LEFT CRUMBLING, NEIGHBORHOODS DESERTED.

THIS MONASTERY, NOW BULLET-RIDDEN AND SECRATED.

THE SCALE OF THE DESTRUCTION IS REFLECTED ACROSS SOUTHERN LEBANON.

WHILE MEMBERS OF THIS COMMUNITY WORK TO REBUILD HOMES AND RESTORE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, SOME WOUNDS ARE MORE DIFFICULT TO HEAL.

MANY HAVE LOST THEIR LIVELIHOODS.

"MOST OF THE RESIDENTS HERE DEPEND ON AGRICULTURE.

THERE WAS A HARVEST SEASON RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

PEOPLE FLED AND LEFT IT BEHIND", THE MAYOR OF WEST ZOLTA SAYS.

"I BELIEVE THERE IS A BIG PERCENTAGE OF FARMS THAT ARE NOT FIT FOR FARMING ANYMORE DUE TO SHELLING AND AIR STRIKES. "

FOR MANY, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE THEIR HOMES, NOR THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE RETURNED TO FIND UTTER DESTRUCTION.

LOCALS HERE KNOW JUST HOW FRAGILE A CEASEFIRE CAN BE AND HOW QUICKLY EVERYTHING CAN CHANGE.

AND WHILE SOME SAY THEY ARE PUTTING THEIR TRUST IN THE LEBANESE ARMY TO PROTECT THEM, OTHERS SAY THEY REMAIN FAITHFUL IN THEIR SUPPORT FOR ANOTHER MILITARY FORCE, HEZBOLLAH.

THE IRAN-BACKED POLITICAL AND MILITARY GROUP HAS LONG DOMINATED IN THE SOUTH.

"I'M PROUD THAT MY HUSBAND, A FIGHTER WHO DEFENDED HIS LAND, WAS MARTYRED IN HIS VILLAGE," A MOTHER NOW WIDOWED TELLS US.

SHE AND HER CHILDREN FLED THE BORDER OF AL HAIFA IN 2023.

THEIR COMMUNITY COMING UNDER INTENSE LIZ BOMBARDMENT AFTER HEZBOLLAH LAUNCHED A SERIES OF ATTACKS ON ISRAEL IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

"WAR WITH ISRAEL," SHE SAYS HAS IMPACTED GENERATIONS OF HER FAMILY.

THEY KILLED MY GRANDFATHER.

MY FATHER WAS PRISONER OF WAR, SHE SAYS.

ALL MY UNCLES WERE TORTURED.

MY ENTIRE VILLAGE SUFFERED.

NOW ISRA SAYS SHE IS DETERMINED TO CARRY ON THE STRUGGLE.

"EVENTUALLY WE WILL RETURN TO OUR VILLAGE, AND IF WE DON'T, THEN OUR CHILDREN WILL RETURN.

AND IF THEY DON'T, OUR GRANDCHILDREN WILL. "

>> STARTLING LEVEL OF DESTRUCTION THERE AS PEOPLE TRY AND RETURN TO THEIR HOMES.

NOW WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN UNDER INTENSE SCRUTINY, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRAINING THEIR CAMERAS ON I. C. E. AGENCY AS THEY MAKE ARRESTS.

NOW THE AGENCY IS APPARENTLY TRYING TO TURN THE TABLES WITH A DIGITAL SURVEILLANCE OPERATION THAT'S LEFT MANY THINKING TWICE ABOUT WHAT THEY POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA AFTER A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS WERE APPROACHED BY I. C. E. AGENTS ASKING ABOUT THEIR ACTIVITY ONLINE.

HANNAH CRITCHFIELD IS A REPORTER AT THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THESE CASES, AND SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHAT SHE FOUND.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

HANNAH CRITCHFIELD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A PIECE RECENTLY IF "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" TITLED "HOW I. C. E. IS WEAPONIZING SOCIAL MEDIA AGAINST ITS CRITICS. "

WHAT DID YOUR INVESTIGATION FIND?

WALK US THROUGH IT.

>> YEAH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

SO I AND A COLLEAGUE FOUND THAT IN RECENT MONTHS, I. C. E. HAS DEPLOYED THIS ROUND-THE-CLOCK DIGITAL DRIVE NET TO SCOUR THE PUBLIC INTERNET FROM FACEBOOK TO INSTAGRAM TO X FOR SPEECH THAT COULD ENDANGER THE AGENCY'S MISSION.

AND WE FOUND THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS PAID MILLIONS TO PRIVATE CONTRACTORS TO HELP CARRY OUT THIS WORK, BOTH U. S. CITIZENS AND ACTIVIST GROUPS THAT ALERT COMMUNITY MEMBERS ABOUT I. C. E. ACTIVITY IN THEIR AREA HAVE BEEN FLAGGED UNDER THIS MONITORING.

>> OKAY.

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE THAT WERE CAUGHT UP IN THIS DRAGNET.

>> SURE.

SO WE FOUND THAT THE AGENCY HAS ISSUED HUNDREDS OF SUBPOENAS RELATED TO ONLINE SPEECH TO TRY AND UNMASK ANONYMOUS POSTERS.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT THE AGENCY IS CURRENTLY TRYING TO UNMASK IS AN ANONYMOUS REDDIT USER, THEY GO BY THE NAME "TIRED THUMB" ON REDDIT.

AND THE AGENCY INITIALLY FILED A SUBPOENA REQUESTING THIS PERSON'S IDENTITY AND DETAILS ABOUT THEM RELATED TO ABOUT A MONTH AND A HALF OF ONLINE SPEECH.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS COME UP IN OUR REPORTING IS THAT OFTENTIMES WHEN THE AGENCY ISSUES THESE SUBPOENAS, THERE'S NOT A LOT OF DETAIL ABOUT WHY OR WHAT THE SPEECH WAS THAT BROUGHT THIS PERSON UNDER THE GOVERNMENT'S EYE.

BUT WE IDENTIFY THAT BETWEEN JANUARY TO MID-FEBRUARY OF THIS YEAR, THIS ANONYMOUS USER POSTED ABOUT THE AGENCY THREE TIMES.

EACH TIME IT WAS CRITICIZING IMMIGRATION AGENTS AFTER A U. S. CITIZEN HAD BEEN KILLED BY AN IMMIGRATION OFFICER.

ONE WAS AFTER RENEE GOODE AND TWO WERE AFTER ALEX PRETTI WAS FATALLY SHOT.

IT IS A REALLY INTERESTING THING BECAUSE WE FIND THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF INVESTIGATIONS GOING ON, BUT OFTENTIMES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING INVESTIGATED DON'T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY IT IS THAT THEY DID.

BUT THEIR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID THAT THEY WERE POSTING FIRST AMENDMENT SPEECH THAT WAS CRITICAL OF THE AGENCY.

>> THERE WAS A CHIEF LEGAL OFFICER AT REDDIT WHO PUT OUT THE STATEMENT PRIVACY IS CENTRAL TO HOW REDDIT OPERATES.

HE SAID THE COMPANY ROUTINELY OBJECTS TO GOVERNMENT REQUESTS THAT ARE OVERBOARD OR THREATEN USERS CIVIL RIGHTS INCLUDING FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

WE ALSO NOTIFY IMPACTED USERS WHENEVER POSSIBLE SO THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEEK COUNSEL AND DEFEND THEIR INTERESTS.

ANY OF THESE INTERESTS THAT I. C. E. GOING AFTER THESE PEOPLE FOR, WAS THERE SPECIFIC KIND OF INTELLIGENCE THAT THEY WERE SHARING OR WAS IT JUST THAT THEY DIDN'T LIKE WHAT WAS GOING ON?

>> THE AGENCY SAYS THAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING AN 8,000% INCREASE IN DEATH THREATS AGAINST THEIR OFFICERS AND THEIR OFFICERS' FAMILIES.

AND THEY SAY THAT THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE INVESTIGATING ARE ALL CREDIBLE THREATS.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT DURING THIS ADMINISTRATION, THE AGENCY HAS EMBRACED A BROADER DEFINITION OF WHAT CONSTITUTES AS DOXXING.

THIS IS TRADITIONALLY THOUGHT OF AS SHARING SOMEBODY'S INFORMATION.

UNDER THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, THE DHS HAS SAID POSTING FOOTAGE OF AN OFFICER ON THE JOB ONLINE IS DOXXING.

IT HAS HEAVILY IMPLIED THAT NEWS OUTLETS WHO PUBLISH THE NAME OF THE OFFICER WHO FATALLY SHOT RENEE GOODE WERE ENGAGED IN RECKLESS HARMFUL BEHAVIOR THAT ENDANGERED THE LIFE OF THEIR AGENTS.

WE KNOW THAT THE AGENCY HAS TAKEN A REALLY HARD-LINE STANCE ON DOXXING.

THEY HAVE ASSERTED THAT IT IS A CRIME ITSELF.

LEGAL EXPERTS WE SPOKE TO SAID THE REALITY IS A LITTLE BIT MORE NUANCED.

IN ORDER TO BREAK THE LAW TO COMMIT A CRIME YOU HAVE TO SHARE THIS PERSONAL INFORMATION WITH SOME SORT OF CRIMINAL INTENT.

THAT'S ACTUALLY REALLY HARD TO PROVE IN A COURT.

AND SOME OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS WE SPOKE TO ABOUT THESE INVESTIGATIONS THAT I. C. E. HAS OPENED HAVE THEORIZED THAT THAT'S PARTIALLY WHY YOU'RE SEEING SO FEW CHARGES BEING FILED.

YOU ARE SEEING A LOT OF PEOPLE BEING INVESTIGATED FOR THEIR ONLINE SPEECH, BUT FEWER ACTUAL CHARGES.

SO THEY HAVE POSITED IT MAY BE AN INTIMIDATION TACTIC.

I. C. E. SAYS THEY ARE DOING THEIR JOB TO INVESTIGATE CREDIBLE THREATS.

>> YOU SAID THAT THE SPENDING ON SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGY AND CONSULTANTS REACHED $258 MILLION IN THE PRESIDENT'S FIRST FULL YEAR BACK IN OFFICE, WHICH IS A 57% INCREASE FROM THE YEAR BEFORE.

YOU ALSO POINT OUT THAT THEY PAID OUT NEARLY $50 MILLION SINCE 2020 ON THESE AROUND-THE-CLOCK OPERATIONS, AT LEAST IN SIX DIFFERENT CONTRACTS.

GIVE ME AN IDEA OF THE KIND OF DOSSIER THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO COMPILE DURING SURVEILLANCE.

WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT CAN THEY GATHER, DO THEY GATHER?

>> THE GOVERNMENT HAS PAID MILLIONS TO THESE PRIVATE CONTRACTORS, AND THEY'RE TASKED WITH SURFACING TWO TYPES OF ONLINE ACTIVITY, POTENTIAL THREATS TO AGENTS, TO I. C. E. EMPLOYEES, TO THEIR FAMILIES, AND SPEECH THAT COULD POTENTIALLY DISRUPT I. C. E.

'S OPERATIONS.

THEY USE THESE POWERFUL OPEN SOURCE INVESTIGATIVE TOOLS TO ALLOW FOR CONSTANT MONITORING IN THE BACKGROUND.

AND THEN THEY PREPARE DAILY REPORTS FOR I. C. E. ABOUT SPEECH THAT THEY FOUND ONLINE, AS WELL AS AD HOC EMERGENCY ALERTS TO THE AGENCY.

FOR INSTANCE, CONTRACTORS MIGHT NOTIFY I. C. E. IF THEY'RE SEEING A LOT OF CHATTER FROM A RAPT RESPONSE GROUP IN A PARTICULAR AREA.

SO AGENTS IN THE FIELD CAN HAVE THIS SITUATIONAL AWARENESS ABOUT POSSIBLE ATTEMPTS TO IMPEDE THEIR WORK.

BUT THEY'RE ALSO ASKED TO PREPARE DOSSIERS ON PEOPLE WHO HAVE POSTED SPEECH THAT'S DEEMED POTENTIALLY THREATENING.

IF THEY'RE ABLE TO, THOSE REPORTS INCLUDE THE PERSON'S NAME, THEIR LOCATION RIGHT DOWN TO THEIR HOME ADDRESS, THEIR DATE OF BIRTH, SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER, VEHICLE REGISTRATION AND CRIMINAL HISTORY.

THEY HAND THESE OVER TO I. C. E.

'S STAFF WHO CAN DEVELOP IT FURTHER.

ONE WAY THIS MIGHT HAPPEN IS THROUGH THE SUBPOENAS THAT WE'VE SPOKEN ABOUT BEFORE.

IF A THREAT ACTOR CAN'T BE IDENTIFIED, AGENTS MIGHT ISSUE A SUBPOENA TO A SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY FOR THEIR IDENTITY.

>> YOU HAVE POINTED OUT THERE HAVE BEEN ALL THESE DIFFERENT SUBPOENAS.

WHO ARE THEY GOING TO?

WHAT ARE THE PLATFORMS THAT I. C. E. IS SURVEILLING, AND WHAT DO THE PLATFORMS DO IN RESPONSE?

>> SO THE NOTICE FOR THE SPECIFIC CONTRACT CALLS FOR THE MONITORING OF THE PUBLIC INTERNET, WHICH MEANS BOTH THE DARK WEB, ASPECTS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU AND I AND PERHAPS MANY VIEWERS HAVE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT ACCESSING, BUT ALSO REALLY COMMONLY USED SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE NOTICE FOR THIS PARTICULAR PROGRAM CALLS FOR THE MONITORING OF MORE THAN 20 SOCIAL MEDIA SITES.

THAT'S LINKEDIN, REDDIT, DISCORD, SNAPCHAT, THOUGH IT MAY BE MONITORING EVEN MORE THAN THAT.

WHEN I IS A I THE PUBLIC WEB, I MEAN THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFTEN HAS APPROACHED SOCIAL MEDIA AS AN INVESTIGATIVE TOOL ONLY USING THINGS THAT ARE AVAILABLE IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE THEY CAN WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT OBSERVE SOMEONE PERHAPS EXCHANGING DRUGS IN A TRANSACTION IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

IF MY GRAHAM IS PRIVATE, THEY'RE NOT LOOKING AT ME.

BUT IF MY GRAHAM IS PUBLIC OR I'M POSTING IN A PUBLIC FACEBOOK GROUP, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S COMING UNDER THIS KIND OF MONITORING.

AND FOR SITES LIKE REDDIT'S, WHERE A LOT OF IT IS JUST OPEN AND PUBLICLY AVAILABLE, THAT'S SUBJECT TO MONITORING AT ANY TIME.

IN TERMS OF SUBPOENAS, THEY HAVE ISSUED SUBPOENAS TO METAPHOR FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM ACCOUNTS.

THEY'VE ISSUED SUBPOENAS TO REDDIT, TO GOOGLE, INCLUDING FOR EMAILS THAT INDIVIDUAL USERS HAVE WRITTEN TO AGENCY STAFF.

SO IT'S A REALLY WIDE VARIETY OF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES THAT WE KNOW HAVE BEEN ASKED TO TURN OVER THIS INFORMATION ABOUT USERS.

>> AND I WONDER AGAIN, WHAT IS THAT LEVEL OF COOPERATION, WHETHER IT'S META OR WHETHER IT'S GOOGLE.

AND IF THEY'RE BARRAGED WITH 100 OF THESE, I DO THAT HAVE A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF EVERY SINGLE REQUEST THE GOVERNMENT IS MAKING OR DO THEY JUST SAY YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE'RE JUST GOING TO TRUST THE GOOD IS GOOD FOR IT AND WE'RE GOING THE HAND OVER THIS DATA.

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME UP AGAIN AND AGAIN IN OUR REPORTING.

THESE SUBPOENAS THAT ARE SENT ON BEHALF OF I. C. E. , THEY REQUEST THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY NOT REVEAL THEIR EXISTENCE TO ANYONE.

SO IT'S UP TO THE PLATFORM TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO COMPLY WITH THAT OR ALERT THE USER IN QUESTION.

IT'S POSSIBLE PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR IDENTITIES TURNED OVER TO DHS WITHOUT EVER KNOWING THE SUBJECT OF AN INVESTIGATION.

THAT SAID, COMPANIES WE SPOKE TO DO --THEY SAID THAT THEY DO ALERT USERS ABOUT THESE SUBPOENAS WHEN POSSIBLE, LIKE YOU MENTIONED.

SO USERS CAN THEN FIND LEGAL REPRESENTATION AND PUSH BACK.

BOTH REDDIT AND META WHICH OWNS FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM ALSO PROVIDED SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF TIMES WHEN THEIR ATTORNEYS PUSHED BACK ON BEHALF OF USERS, WHEN THEY FELT THE SUBPOENAS WERE OVERLYELY BROAD.

BUT IT'S UNCLEAR IN BROAD TERMS HOY OFTEN THIS HAPPENS.

I THINK YOUR QUESTION GETS TO THE HEART OF THIS.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW OFTEN THIS IS HAPPENING TO USERS ON A GIVEN PLATFORM, HOW OFTEN A SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY IS NOTIFYING USERS, HOW OFTEN THAT PLATFORM IS PUSHING BACK VERSUS EXPECTING THE USER TO FIND THEIR OWN LEGAL REPRESENTATION, OR EVEN HOW OFTEN IT RECEIVES REQUESTS FROM DHS RELATED TO QUESTIONS ABOUT IMMIGRATION OR OFFICERS OVERALL UNLESS A COMPANY CHOOSES TO DISCLOSE IT.

IT'S ENTIRELY OPTION FOR THEM THEM TO SHARE WITH THE PUBLIC.

>> ANY ALLEGATION THAT DHS AND I. C. E. ARE ATTEMPTING TO SQUASH FREE SPEECH IS CATEGORICALLY FALSE, AND THAT I. C. E. INVESTIGATES ALL CREDIBLE THREATS TOWARDS ITS EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS AND FAMILIES.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE POLL WORKER.

I THINK IT'S PAGE LA GAGNE.

WHAT HAPPENED TO HER?

>> PAGE LYNN IS WORKING AS A POLL WORKER DURING NEW YORK'S PRIMARIES IN JUNE AND SEES THERE IS A VOICE MAIL FROM AN UNKNOWN NUMBER.

AND SHE LISTENS TO IT, AND IT SAYS THAT THE PERSON WHO IS CALLING IS AN AGENT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

THEY JUST STOPPED BY HER HOUSE, AND SOMEONE PASSED ALONG HER NUMBER.

AND THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR HER TO SPEAK TO HER ABOUT AN INSTAGRAM POST WHERE SHE DOXXED AN AGENT IN JANUARY.

THEN THEY DELIVER THIS TO HER AT THE POLLING SITE.

THEY ASK HER TO SIGN IT.

SHE SAID I'M NOT COMFORTABLE SIGNING, I WANT TO TALK TO MY LAWYER, BUT SHE KEEPS THE LETTER.

IT'S WHY ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT THESE LETTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE, SHE POSTS IT ON HER SOCIAL MEDIA.

SHE HAS CONTINUED TO POST PUBLICLY, BUT SAID AS A RESULT OF THIS INCIDENT THAT PEOPLE ONLINE HAVE DUG UP HER INFORMATION WHERE SHE LIVES, THINGS ABOUT HER PAST.

PAGE LYNN HAS SAID SHE HAS NO RECOLLECTION OF EVER DOXXING AN AGENT AND THAT THE ONLY SOCIAL MEDIA POST SHE COULD FIND ABOUT AN AGENT FROM JANUARY WAS ONE WHERE SHE SAID THAT JONATHAN ROSS SHOULD BE INDICTED.

AND SHE SHARED THE ORIGINAL MINNESOTA STAR TRIBUNE ARTICLE THAT REVEALS HIS NAME AND THAT HE WAS THE AGENT WHO SHOT RENEE GOODE.

DHS I SHOULD SAY PROVIDED -- THEY SHOWED ME A SCREEN SHOT OF A DIFFERENT POST THAT APPEARED TO BE FROM PAGE LYNN'S ACCOUNT THAT WAS REDACTED.

IT SAID THE KILLER'S NAME IS JONATHAN ROSS OF --AND THE REST OF IT WAS REDACTED.

THEY SAID SHE SHARED HIS ADDRESS IN THIS POST.

WE ATTEMPTED TO CONTACT META TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND, TO SEE IF THEY WOULD VERIFY THE EXISTENCE OF THIS POST OR NOT.

IT'S NOT CURRENTLY ON PAGE LYNN'S INSTAGRAM.

IT DIDN'T APPEAR IN HER DELETED FOLDER.

IT DIDN'T APPEAR IN HERMIT THAT DATA.

I SHOULD SAY SOMETIMES DELETED POSTS DO NOT APPEAR IN ANY OF THOSE PLACES AFTER 30 DAYS.

AND THAT'S PART OF THE CHALLENGE OF THE AGENCY INVESTIGATING HER MORE THAN FIVE MONTHS AFTER SHE ALLEGEDLY EXHIBITED THIS BEHAVIOR.

>> SO I WONDER IN THIS KIND OF DIGITAL LANDSCAPE, HAVE THERE BEEN COURT CASES THAT HAVE TRIED TO DETERMINE THIS?

>> ONE OF THE BIZARRE THINGS THAT CAME UP AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR US DURING THIS REPORTING WAS THAT A LOT OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT WE SPOKE TO WHO HAD SOME SORT OF INTERACTION WITH THE AGENCY, WHO KNEW THAT THEY HAD BEEN INVESTIGATED IN SOME CAPACITY OVER THEIR ONLINE SPEECH HAD NOT YET FACED ANY SORT OF CHARGES.

THEY HAD BEEN INVESTIGATED BUT --AND IN SOME INSTANCES, THEIR IDENTITIES WERE TURNED OVER TO DHS, OR WE KNOW THEY WERE IDENTIFIED BY THE AGENCY.

BUT THEY HAVE NOT YET FACED ANY SORT OF CHARGES.

IT IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS THAT DEFENSE ATTORNEYS SAY THAT THEY BELIEVE THIS MAY BE AN INTIMIDATION TACTIC, BECAUSE IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO CHALLENGE THE LEGALITY OF THIS IF IT'S JUST UNDER THE GUISE OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT INVESTIGATION BUT NO CHARGES HAVE YET BEEN FILED.

>> SO HAS THE GOVERNMENT MADE SUCCESSFUL CONVICTIONS, INDICTMENTS AGAINST PEOPLE WHO THEY HAVE FOUND THROUGH THIS DRAGNET?

>> DEFINITELY.

AND ONE THING THAT I DON'T THINK ANYONE DISAGREES ABOUT IS THAT VITRIOL TOWARDS I. C. E. AND IMMIGRATION OFFICERS ONLINE IS --IT'S HIGH RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS A LOT OF ONLINE VITRIOL.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME INSTANCES IN THE LAST YEAR OF PEOPLE BEING PROSECUTED AND CONVICTED FOR RELATED TO SPEECH THAT THEY MADE ONLINE THERE WAS A MAN IN OKLAHOMA WHO WAS CONVICTED OF THREATENING TO KILL FEDERAL AGENTS BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HE WROTE ON X. THERE IS ANOTHER INSTANCE WHERE TWO WOMEN WERE CONVICTED IN A LOS ANGELES COURT OF STALKING BECAUSE THEY WERE LIVE STREAMING FROM AN I. C. E. WATCH ACCOUNT ON INSTAGRAM.

THEY WERE LIVE STREAMING AS THEY FOLLOWED AN AGENT IN HIS VEHICLE.

BOTH -- BOTH OF THE DEFENDANTS HAVE SAID THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FOLLOWING THIS AGENT TO AN IMMIGRATION RAID.

ULTIMATELY, THOUGH, THE AGENT WAS DRIVING TO HIS HOME, AND THEY ENDED UP AT HIS STREET.

AND IT DIDN'T REVEAL HIS ADDRESS, BUT IT DID REVEAL WHERE HE LIVED.

THEY WERE ULTIMATELY CONVICTED OF STALKING FOR THAT.

SO THERE HAVE BEEN PROSECUTIONS AND CONVICTIONS FOR ONLINE SPEECH, SPECIFICALLY FOR ENDANGERING OR INTIMIDATING OR STALKING IMMIGRATION AGENTS.

>> LOOK, YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN DOING STORIES ABOUT THE INCREASE OF FUNDING THAT GOES INTO I GUESS WHAT IS THE SURVEILLANCE ECONOMY.

I MEAN, AS YOU LOOK AT THIS AND YOU SEE KIND OF NEW SURFACES WHERE SURVEILLANCE IS AFFECTING THE LIVES OF INDIVIDUALS, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT KIND OF LARGER CONTEXT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY WAS FOUNDED IN THE WAKE OF 9/11 TO PROTECT THE HOMELAND, RIGHT.

IT'S IN ITS NAME.

BUT SPEAKING WITH STAFFERS AND FORMER STAFFERS, IT'S ALWAYS HAD A BIT OF A TENSION IN ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH SURVEILLANCE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT --JUST LIKE YOU SAID BEFORE.

YOU DON'T WANT TO NOT TAKE A POTENTIAL THREAT SERIOUSLY AND THEN HAVE AN ATTACK ON DOMESTIC SOIL.

THAT'S REALLY HARD.

U. S. CITIZENS, AMERICANS ARE REALLY TOUCHY ABOUT --AND I THINK UNDERSTANDABLY SO, REALLY TOUCHY ABOUT FEARS ABOUT OVERREACH WHEN IT COMES TO GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE.

WE KNOW THAT WE'RE IN A TIME WHEN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS MORE MONEY TO SPEND ON NEW TOOLS AND HAS PURCHASED NEW TOOLS, A LOT OF THEM, THAT HAVE SUPER CHARGED ITS SURVEILLANCE CAPABILITIES.

THE AGENCY IS SLATED TO RECEIVE EVEN MORE MONEY IN THE COMING YEARS.

AND I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE WATCHING OUT FOR.

JUST EXACTLY HOW THOSE RESOURCES ARE BEING USED, WHAT'S BEING PURCHASED AND HOW IT'S BEING DEPLOYED, LIKE YOU SEE IN THIS SOCIAL MEDIA PROGRAM.

>> HANNAH CRITCHFIELD, REPORTER AT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, A MOMENT OF REFLECTION MARKING THE 81st ANNIVERSARY OF THE ATOMIC BOMB IN NAGASAKI.

[ BELL RINGING ] THE BELLS IN NAGASAKI RANG ON SUNDAY AT 11:02 A. M. LOCAL TIME, THE EXACT MOMENT THE BOMB HIT THE CITY IN 1945.

ONLY DAYS AFTER THE U. S. DROPPED THE FIRST ATOMIC BOMB IN HIROSHIMA.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH ONE OF THE SURVIVORS OF THE HIROSHIMA BOMBING ON THE 75th ANNIVERSARY BACK IN 2020 AND NOW TETSUKO THOROUGHLOW WAS ONLY 13 WHEN THE BOMB HIT AND SHE HAS BEEN SHARING HER STORY EVERY SINCE.

HERE WHAT'S SHE SAW ON THAT DAY.

>> WE WERE IN A HUGE WOODEN BUILDING ON THE SECOND FLOOR ONE MILE AWAY FROM THE GROUND ZERO.

AND THEN I THINK THE CLOCK, WE STARTED THE MORNING ASSEMBLY.

AND WHEN THE MAJOR WAS SPEAKING TO US, GIVING US THE CHEER, PEP TALK.

THEN SUDDENLY, I SAW THE BLUEISH WHITE FLASH, AND I STILL HAVE THE SENSATION OF FLOATING UP IN THE AIR.

AND WHEN I REGAINED THE CONSCIOUSNESS, I FOUND MYSELF IN TOTAL DARKNESS AND TOTAL SILENCE.

AND I TRIED TO MOVE MY BODY, BUT I COULDN'T.

SO I KNEW I WAS FACING DEATH.

THEN I STARTED HEARING FAINT VOICES, ALL MY GIRLFRIENDS AROUND, AND THEY WERE ASKING FOR HELP FROM THEIR MOTHERS, FROM THEIR GOD.

AND THEN SOMEBODY STRONG MALE VOICE SAID "DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T GIVE UP, KEEP PUSHING, KEEP KICKING.

I'M TRYING TO FREE YOU. "

SO THIS MAN IN THE DARK, I WAS RESCUED.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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COM/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO. "

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.