>> NOW, COULD DEMOCRATS LEARN FROM THE MAGA MOVEMENT?

THAT IS A QUESTION.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS ASKING IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR THE NEW YORKER.

IS ARGUE THAT RECENT RIGHT-LEANING MOVEMENT HAVE THRIVED THE LINK LASTING IMPACT LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE SAYS DEMOCRATS HAVE FOCUSED ON LARGE FLASHY SHOWS OF FORCE THAT HAVE FAILED TO PRODUCE DURABLE IMPACT.

HE EXPLAINS TO MICHELLE MARTIN WHAT HE THINKS IT WOULD TAKE FOR THE LEFT TO BUILD BROADER, MORE RESILIENT COALITIONS.

>> THANK YOU.

CHARLES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ARE WRITING FOR THE NEW YORKER AND AUDIT OFTEN UNPACKS THE WAY SYSTEMS WORK.

HOW DOES THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORK?

IN YOUR LATEST PIECE, IT IS TITLED, WHAT MAGA CAN TEACH DEMOCRATS ABOUT ORGANIZING AND INFIGHTING .

WHAT MADE YOU THING ABOUT THAT?

>> I WAS REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT WHY --DEMOCRATS HAVE OBVIOUSLY BEEN TURNING PEOPLE OUT INTO THE STREETS FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS.

IN SOME OF THE LARGEST PROTESTS WE HAVE EVER SEEN.

AND YET DONALD TRUMP'S MOST RECENT VICTORY AND THE FACT THAT MAGA HAS SUCH SUSTAINABLE LIFE AROUND IT , MADE ME CURIOUS OF WHAT WAS GOING ON.

I DID NOT SEE A LOT OF MAGA PROTESTS.

AS I GOT DEEPER INTO THIS, I REALIZED THERE WAS A SCIENCE BEHIND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS.

THERE WAS A SCIENCE BEHIND WHY SOME MOVEMENTS ATTRACT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND SUSTAIN AND WHY OTHERS ARE FLASH IN A PAN AND DISAPPEAR .

>> IT IS INTERESTINGLY PUT.

YOUR MEMBER WHEN DONALD TRUMP AND KAMALA HARRIS HAD THEIR DEBATE .

KAMALA HARRIS, THE DEMOCRAT, CORRECTLY POINTED OUT THAT TRUMP'S RALLIES WERE NOT THAT SUCCESSFUL.

LIKE THEY WERE HAVING TO FIND SMALLER VENUES .

A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LEAVE EARLY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SORT OF SAW THAT AS A SIGN OF KIND OF WAITING INTEREST .

THAT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE AT ALL .

AND AS A TOOL OF ANALYSIS COUNTY OPEN THE PIECE BY CONTRASTING THEY ARE WHICH IS THE NATIONALLY FUNDED TOP-DOWN ANTIDRUG PROGRAM THAT SPREAD RAPIDLY THROUGH THE SCHOOLS IN THE 1980S.

YOU CONTRAST THAT WITH MOTHERS AGAINST DRUNK DRIVING, WHICH IS A VOLUNTEER DRIVEN GROUP THAT GREW LOCALLY AND GREW UNEVENLY AFTER A PERSONAL TRAGEDY.

WHAT DID MAKE YOU THINK OF THOSE TWO GROUPS?

>> I THINK THEY ARE PERFECT EXAMPLES OF WHAT ARE KNOWN WITHIN THE ACADEMIC LITERATURE OF SOCIAL MOVEMENTS .

OF MOBILIZING AND ORGANIZING.

DARE WAS GOOD AT MOBILIZING.

THEY COULD GET MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TO SHOW UP FOR RALLIES.

THEY GOT THE PRESIDENT TO DECLARE THE FIRST NATIONAL DARE DONATIONS.

OVER TIME, THE PROGRAM PETERED OUT.

IT WAS NOT EFFECTIVE AT CHANGING PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR.

AND MORE SO, SCHOOLS ABANDON IT.

HOWEVER, ORGANIZING, PUSHING DOWN LEADERSHIP, TRAINING LOCAL PEOPLE TO BUILD COMMUNITIES AND BECOME LEADERS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT AND IN DOING SO, BUILDING THESE DURABLE COMMUNITIES THAT ENDED UP HAVING PROLONGED IMPACT .

WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CONTEMPORARY POLITICS, WHAT WE SEE IS THE SAME THING.

DEMOCRATS ARE VERY, VERY GOOD AT MOBILIZATION.

THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT TURNING PEOPLE OUT INTO THE STREETS AND HAVING THESE LARGE RALLIES.

WHEN EVERYONE GOES HOME, THEY STOP TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

THEY DON'T MAKE NEW CONNECTIONS AT THE RALLIES.

THEY FEEL THEY HAVE DONE THERE PART.

THEY STOP WORKING HARD.

WHEREAS ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, THEY ARE VERY MUCH UNDER NOTICED .

AND QUIETLY, MAGA HAS SPENT YEARS AND YEARS BUILDING A NETWORK OF SMALL GROUPS THAT WORK ON LOCAL LEVELS THAT HAVE AN POWERED TENS OF THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TO BECOME LEADERS OF THE CONSERVATIVE IDEAS WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY.

AND IN DOING SO, THEY BUILT A VERY SUSTAINABLE, VERY DURABLE MOVEMENT , THAT WILL FRANKLY OUTLAST DONALD TRUMP.

>> AND ASKING FOR A SOCIAL MOVEMENT TO CREATE REAL CHANGE.

IT HELPS TO BE SKILLED AT BOTH MOBILIZING AND ORGANIZING.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT BOTH SKILLS ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT .

HOW DID YOU KIND OF COME UP WITH THAT IDEA?

>> THERE IS AN ACADEMIC I LOVE NAMED LIZ MCKINNEY AT HARVARD.

THAT SAYS PROTEST IS A TACTIC IN SEARCH OF A STRATEGY.

WHAT SHE MEANS BY THAT IS THAT WHEN WE PROTEST, IT SHOULD BE THE OUTGROWTH OF A COMMUNITY THAT IS BUILT TOGETHER AND IS BECOMING OUTRAGED AND WANTS TO TAKE TO THE STREETS.

THE PROTEST IS NOT THE GOAL OF THE MOVEMENT.

THE PROTEST IS A SYMPTOM THAT YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY COMING TOGETHER AND IS GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER AND STRONGER.

WHEN YOU PRIORITIZE THE PROTEST, WHEN YOU PUSH PEOPLE INTO THE STREETS WHEN YOU USE TWITTER AND THE INTERNET TO ORGANIZE AND SCALE VERY QUICKLY.

AND THE SIDESTEPPING INFRASTRUCTURE BUILDING WHICH IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO MAKING A MOVEMENT DURABLE, THAT IS WHEN YOU GET WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

PEOPLE FEEL VERY PASSIONATE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE ABOUT BEING ANTI-TRUMP AND STANDING UP AGAINST I. C. E. AND YET, WE ARE NOT SEEING THE WIDESPREAD CHANGE THOSE PEOPLE HAD HOPED FOR BECAUSE THEY ARE ALSO NOT COME AT THE SAME TIME, ORGANIZING AND BUILDING THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO WORK DAY IN AND DAY OUT EVERY WEEK WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS TO CREATE CHANGE .

>> ONE OF THE WEIRD IRONIES YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR PIECE IS THAT MANY RIGHT-LEANING GROUPS STUDIED AND ADOPTED STRATEGIES THAT WERE FIRST PERFECTED BY DEMOCRATS .

HOW DID THE RIGHT RING WING GROUPS FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO AND HOW DID DEMOCRATIC OR LEFT-WING GROUPS LOSE IT?

>> ABSOLUTE.

FOR THE TEMPORARY CAN VARY IN -- BARACK OBAMA BASICALLY TURNED CAMPAIGN CONVENTIONAL WISDOM ON ITS HEAD.

INSTEAD OF TELLING VOLUNTEERS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM INTO FRANCHISEES OF THE CAMPAIGN AND SAY, DO WHATEVER YOU THINK IS BEST.

TAKE THE LEADERSHIP INITIATIVE YOURSELF AND GO OUT AND EXPERIMENT WITH THINGS.

AS A RESULT, THEY WERE ABLE TO GET OVER 2 MILLION VOLUNTEERS THAT TURNED TO THEIR NEIGHBORS , OVER 25 MILLION TIMES, TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO VOTE FOR OBAMA AND BROUGHT ABOUT ONE OF THE SWEEPING VICTORIES OF DEMOCRATS IN BOTH THE LEGISLATURE AND THE WHITE HOUSE.

BUT AT THAT MOMENT , TWO THINGS HAPPEN.

FIRST OF ALL, WE STARTED TO SEE THE ROOTS OF THE TEA PARTY AND THE TEA PARTY WAS A VERY DECENTRALIZED MOVEMENT THAT ENDED UP BEING VERY SUCCESSFUL.

ALSO, YOU SAW FOLKS LIKE RALPH REID, THE FORMER HEAD OF THE CHRISTIAN COALITION, LOOK AT THE OBAMA ELECTION AND SAY, THEY ARE OUT ORGANIZING US.

WE HAVE TO GET UTTER AT THIS.

SO RALPH REID STARTED THE ORGANIZATION CALLED THE FAITH AND FAMILY COALITION THAT VERY MUCH WAS MODELED ON THE OBAMA PLAYBOOK, BUT FOR THE RIGHT.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE THINGS MANY OF THE GROUPS TO INCLUDING TURNING POINT USA, THE CHARLIE KIRK ORGANIZATION, IS THAT WHEN A LEADER JOINS ARE GROUP, THEY MAKE THEM READ THIS BOOK CALLED "GROUNDBREAKER'S" WHICH IS ALL ABOUT THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN AND VERY GLOWINGLY ABOUT THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.

THEY SAY, DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE IDEOLOGY .

JUST SAIL THE IDEAS ABOUT ORGANIZING.

SO THE TEA PARTY AND GROUPS LIKE FAITH AND FREEDOM COALITION AND TURNING POINT USA, WE SAW A PROLONGED EMPHASIS ON CREATING THESE SMALL GROUPS ACROSS THE NATION OF NEIGHBORS COMING TOGETHER IN ORDER TO BE ACTIVE.

NOT JUST IN POLITICS BUT ON ALL TYPES OF THINGS.

FAITH AND FREEDOM HAS EXPANDED BY FOCUSING ON EVANGELICAL CHURCHES AND GUN CLUBS AND HOMESCHOOLING ORGANIZATIONS AND IN DOING SO, WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED IS THAT WHEN NEIGHBORS HAVE ONE ISSUE THEY CARE ABOUT, LIKE GUNS , THEN IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PERSUADE THEM WHEN THE ELECTION ROLLS AROUND, TO VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE.

BUT THE POINT IS THAT THEY ARE DOING YEAR-ROUND ORGANIZING .

>> THE OTHER POINT YOU MAKE IN THE PIECE IS THAT, MAGA'S STRENGTH COMES IN PART FROM AN TOLERANCE OR INTERNAL DISAGREEMENT.

THIS IS SOMETHING YOU ARE HEARING DEMOCRATS COMPLAIN ABOUT CONSTANTLY.

ESPECIALLY NATIONAL DEMOCRATS.

THIS SORT OF STRINGENCY AROUND OPINION WHICH IS ENFORCED .

>> YES.

A PURITY TEST.

>> YOU LOOK AT THE WOMEN'S MARCH FOR EXAMPLE.

WHICH IS A HUGE MOBILIZATION IN THE WAKE OF TRUMP'S FIRST ELECTION .

A HUGE MOBILIZATION.

FAR OUTSTRIPPED AND NUMBERS.

THE PEOPLE THAT ATTENDED HIS FIRST INAUGURATION IN THE GROUP FELL APART OVER ALL OF THESE SORT OF INTERNAL DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT WHO WAS RIGHT AND IN ISSUES LIKE ISRAEL.

YOU KNOW WHAT IS INTERESTING THOUGH, IS THAT --I'M BASED IN WASHINGTON , SO I DON'T GET THE SENSE THAT DONALD TRUMP TOLERATES A LOT OF DISAGREEMENT ABOUT ANYTHING.

SO IT IS INTERESTING THAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE ACTUAL ORGANIZING STRUCTURE THAT KEEPS HIM ALIVE AND VIABLE POLITICAL, ACTUALLY DOES.

CAN YOU SAY JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HOW THAT WORKS ON THE GROUND?

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN MAGA AND DONALD TRUMP.

YOU ARE VERY RIGHT.

DONALD TRUMP BRINGS NO DISSENT WITHIN HIS GROUP.

AND YET, IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAGA MOVEMENT, THEY WELCOME ALMOST EVERYONE AS LONG AS YOU ARE WILLING TO PUT ON THE RED HAT .

AND FOR MANY OF THEM, THEY ACTUALLY OPPOSED TRUMP WHEN HE FIRST ROSE UP IN THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

AND THEY HAVE NOW COME AROUND TO BEING BOOSTERS OF HIS BECAUSE HE IS THE GUY WINNING.

AND IS GREAT TO JUMP ON HIS COATTAILS.

BUT MAGA IS A VERY DIFFERENT MOVEMENT FROM DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

MAGA SAYS THAT IF YOU WEAR THE RED HAT, YOU ARE ALLOWED IN.

WE DON'T CARE WHO YOU DATE.

WE DON'T CARE WHO YOU LOVE.

WE DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE PRO- CHOICE OR PRO-LIFE .

WE DON'T CARE IF YOU ARE PRO-TRANS RIGHTS OR NOT .

AS LONG AS HE WEAR THE RED HAT, YOU ARE WELCOME WITHIN OUR CAN'T.

AND IF WE CONTRAST THAT WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE LEFT, WE OFTEN SEE PURITY TEST .

IF YOU WERE A PRO-LIFE DEMOCRAT, YOU WERE EXCLUDED FROM ALMOST EVERY SOCIAL ORGANIZATION THAT SHOULD BE WELCOMING YOU.

IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT DEI INITIATIVES OR JANUARY 6th OR SAYS, YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE ELON MUSK BUT MAYBE SHAKING UP THE GOVERNMENT, MAYBE THERE IS SOMETHING THERE .

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR YOU TO REALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE DEMOCRATS AND THEY MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE EXCLUDED.

WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT POLITICAL MOVEMENTS AND POLITICAL PARTIES IS THAT THEY SUCCEED WHEN THEY BECOME BIG TENTS.

AND MAGA IS VERY FOCUSED ON BEING A BIG TENT.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SAY YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR THE GUY AT THE TOP OF THE REPUBLICAN TICKET AND YOU ARE A MEMBER.

DEMOCRATS HAVE --ARE MUCH MORE FOCUSED ON IDEOLOGICAL PURITY AND IT IS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE PARTY.

>> HOW DID THAT START?

HOW DID IT HAPPEN WITH SOMEONE LIKE OBAMA , WHO LED THIS MOVEMENT THAT WAS VERY INCLUSIVE AND THEN IT BECAME SORT OF OSSIFIED INTO THESE PURITY TESTS?

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

DO YOU HAVE A SENSE?

>> I THINK TWO THINGS HAPPEN.

FIRST, I THINK THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP WAS SUCH AN OVERWHELMING SHOCK TO THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT DEMOCRATS THEN SAID, WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE UNIFIED AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

WE HAVE TO SHOW THERE IS NO DISSENT WITHIN OUR RANKS .

BECAUSE WE FEEL LIKE THAT IS THE WAY WE PROVE THAT WE ARE THE RESISTANCE.

AND THAT IS AN UNDERSTANDABLE INSTINCT.

BUT IT IS EXACTLY THE WRONG THING TO DO.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, IS COVID AND THE RACIAL RECKONING THAT HAPPENED AFTER GEORGE FLOYD.

THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE AND HOW WE LOOKED AT SOCIAL ISSUES .

YOU WILL REMEMBER DURING COVID, THAT IT BECAME -- A SIGN OF FAITH ON THE LEFT THAT YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY WEAR A MASK AND THAT WE SHOULD CLOSE THE SCHOOLS .

AND REPUBLICAN STATES THAT DIDN'T ENFORCE MASK WEARING AND DIDN'T CLOSE SCHOOLS WERE ALMOST DEMONIZED.

AND NOW WE KNOW LOOKING BACK THAT IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

IT IS A SOPHISTICATED ISSUE.

SOME PEOPLE SHOULD BE WEARING MASKS.

OTHERS DON'T HAVE TO.

MAYBE SOME PLACES WE CLOSE SCHOOLS AND OTHER PLACES WE SHOULDN'T CLOSE COOLS.

BUT THERE WAS THIS EMPHASIS OF UNITY ON THE LEFT THAT BECAME DOGMATIC.

AND WE STILL HAVE NOT GROWN OUT OF THAT.

IN FACT, THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP WON WON BY BEING ANTI- WOKE, IS EVIDENCE THAT HOW MUCH THIS PERCEPTION FOR A NEED FOR IDEOLOGICAL PURITY STILL EXISTS.

AND PEOPLE ARE EITHER ENDORSING IT OR REACTING IN CONTRAST TO IT.

THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THIS HAS NOT ALWAYS BEEN TRUE AS YOU POINT OUT.

IT WAS NOT TRUE UNDER OBAMA AND IT WAS NOT TRUE UNDER CLINTON.

WE OVER NUMBER THE SISTER MOVEMENT WHEN CLINTON VERY VISIBLY BROKE WITH SOME OF THE CORE CONSTITUENTS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THIS USED TO BE SOMETHING WE SAW IS A GOOD SIGN THAT A PARTY IS ALIVE AND BREATHING AND CHANGING .

AND THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO GET BACK TO THAT IF THEY WANT TO SUCCEED .

>> WHAT ABOUT MINNEAPOLIS?

WE HAVE SEEN AN INTENSE KIND OF GRASSROOTS MOBILIZATION .

THESE ARE PEOPLE SAYING, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE TO ME.

MY NEIGHBORS ARE BEING HARASSED AND PERSECUTED.

I'M NOT TOLERATING THIS.

AND OF COURSE THIS IS AFTER TWO U. S. CITIZENS HAVE BEEN SHOT BY FEDERAL AGENTS UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WITNESS THIS CONSIDER ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

AND THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOW SEEN FOR THEMSELVES.

SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

YOU THINK THIS HAS SOME MEANINGFUL IMPACT OR NOT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT MINNEAPOLIS IS THAT IT IS NOT ALL GROUPS ON THE LEFT THAT HAVE IGNORED THE WISDOM OF GRASSROOTS ORGANIZING.

IN FACT, IN MINNEAPOLIS, WE SEE A NUMBER OF GROUPS THAT, FOR YEARS NOW, HAVE BEEN ORGANIZING GRASSROOTS AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

ONE OF MY FAVORITES IS A GROUP NAMED ISAIAH WHICH BROUGHT TOGETHER CHILDCARE WORKERS, COLLEGE STUDENTS, EAST AFRICAN REFUGEES .

ISLAMIC CENTERS AND CHURCHES.

GROUPS THAT NORMALLY WOULD NEVER COME TOGETHER.

ISAIAH HAS BEEN BRINGING THEM TOGETHER FOR OVER A DECADE AND HAS BEEN HELPING THEM ORGANIZE AMONG THEMSELVES AND SAYING, LOOK, YOU SHARE VALUES TOGETHER.

IF WE WORK TOGETHER, WE BECOME STRONGER.

THOSE ARE THE GROUPS THAT RIGHT NOW ARE NEEDING THIS MOBILIZATION.

THE SOCIAL GROUP CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT ORGANIZING AND MOBILIZING .

THE MOBILIZING IS REALLY IMPORTANT .

BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS IS THE ORGANIZING HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A DECADE ON THE LEFT .

SO NOW, WHEN THEY MOBILIZE, IT IS NOT JUST A ONE DAY SHOW UP AND BLOW YOUR WHISTLE PICK IT IS A PROLONGED, CONSISTENT ATTEMPT TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THAT CITY AND IN THIS NATION.

AND IT IS THAT DURABILITY , THOSE UNSUNG HEROES OF LOCAL PEOPLE THAT SHOW UP AND TAKE OUT THEIR PHONES AND BLOW THEIR WHISTLES , DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY, BECAUSE THEY SEE THEIR FRIENDS THERE .

THEY SEE THEIR NEIGHBORS THERE.

THAT IS WHAT CREATES REAL CHANGE .

>> DO YOU SEE THIS AS HAVING AN IMPACT MORE BROADLY ON SORT OF ORGANIZING ELSEWHERE ?

AND THINKING IN NEW YORK FOR EXAMPLE, THE ELECTION OF THE CURRENT MAYOR, NO ONE THOUGHT THIS .

THE SMART MONEY WAS NOT ON THIS PERSON AND IT JUST SEEMED VERY MUCH TO BE A MATTER OF PEOPLE ORGANIZING .

ANOTHER QUESTION BECOMES, THE STRATEGY FOR GETTING ELECTED TRANSLATE ELSEWHERE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND POLITICIANS ARE JEALOUS OF NOTHING LIKE SUCCESS IN THIS WORLD.

SO EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN, PARTICULAR DID DEMOCRAT, WATCHED THE ZOHRAN MAMDANI CAMPAIGN AND SAID, WHY DID THIS GUY WIN?

HOW DO I IMITATE THAT?

THERE WATCHING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN MINNESOTA NOW AND SAYING, THESE ARE THE TYPES OF PEOPLE THAT I WANT TO SHOW UP TO FIGHT FOR ME, TO FIGHT FOR MY CANDIDACY AND TO FIGHT FOR THE POLICIES I CARE ABOUT .

WHAT HAPPENED THERE THAT MADE THIS PLACE SO SPECIAL THAT WE SEE SUCH A PROLONGED TURNOUT?

ABSOLUTELY.

EVERYONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT LOCAL ORGANIZING SEEMS TO BE THE KEY TO SUSTAINABLE VICTORY .

AND I THINK WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO CNES MIDTERMS THIS YEAR AS WELL AS THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION COMING UP, IS YOU WILL SEE A MUCH GREATER EMPHASIS ON SPENDING MONEY AND ATTENTION ON LOCAL AREAS AND LOCAL LEADERS RATHER THAN NATIONAL CAMPAIGNS.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE ANOTHER SITUATION LIKE KAMALA HARRIS WHERE $2 BILLION WAS SPENT TRYING TO ELECT HER WHILE LOCAL SMALLER ORGANIZATIONS BASICALLY COULD NOT GET ANY MONEY.

IN FACT, WE WILL SEE THE REVERSE OF THAT BECAUSE EVERYBODY REALIZES IT IS THE SMALL LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT WORK YEAR AROUND, THOSE OF THE TRUSTED MESSENGERS AND THOSE OF THE PEOPLE THAT CONVINCE PEOPLE TO VOTE.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, GALLUP POLLING FOUND A NEW HIGH IN THE PEOPLE IDENTIFY AS INDEPENDENCE.

IT SAYS 45% OF AMERICANS DIDN'T FIGHT AS POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE.

THAT SUGGESTS FRUSTRATION WITH BOTH PARTIES.

IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN, WHAT IS THE WAY TO SORT OF ORGANIZE , TO ACHIEVE RESULTS FOR A POLITICAL PARTY ?

BECAUSE THAT GENERALLY IS THE WAY POLITICS IS CONDUCTED IN THIS COUNTRY .

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT APPRAISED VALUES ARE.

AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES POLITICS AND WATCHES IT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE VALUES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ARE RIGHT NOW.

EXCEPT FOR BEING ANTI-TRUMP.

I DON'T KNOW EXACT WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN OR WHAT THEY THINK THE FUTURE SHOULD LOOK LIKE .

AND ON THE RIGHT COME ON THE REPUBLICANS, THERE IS A REAL DISENCHANTMENT BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE VALUES OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE EXCEPT FOR SAYING, I'M WILLING TO PUT ON THE RED HAT AND I'M WILLING TO VOTE FOR TRUMP.

NEITHER PARTY HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB OF ELUCIDATING WHAT THEIR VALUES ARE AND WHY YOU SHOULD SUPPORT THEM RATHER THAN CHOOSE THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.

AND THAT IS WHAT THE PRIMARY IS GOING TO BE.

WE ARE GOING TO SEE A BATTLE AMONG MANY, MANY CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT COME OVER WHAT THE VALUES OF THE DEMOCRATS OUGHT TO BE AND WHAT THE VALUES OF THE REPUBLICANS OUGHT TO BE AND HOW WE ELUCIDATE THOSE AND CLEAR THOSE.

ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE NEED SOMETHING TO VOTE FOR.

THEY NEED TO SAY, I'M A DEMOCRAT BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN WHAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE SAYING.

OR I'M A REPUBLICAN BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE VALUES OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND UNTIL THOSE ARE ELUCIDATED, WE WON'T SEE PEOPLE IDENTIFYING.

AND SAYING, I DON'T IDENTIFY WITH EITHER BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PARTY IS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.