Hernan Diaz: I hope that perhaps I will have induced sort of a joyful form of paranoia in the reader.

Marcia Franklin: Coming up, I talk with novelist Hernan Diaz about his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, "Trust."

That's next on "Conversations from the Sun Valley Writers' Conference."

Stay with us.

Announcer: Major funding is provided by the Idaho Public Television Endowment and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Franklin: Hello and welcome.

I'm Marcia Franklin.

My guest today spent nearly two decades writing in virtual obscurity.

Then, in 2018, Hernan Diaz learned that his novel, "In the Distance," had been nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.

It didn't win, but only five years later, Diaz was about to give a reading in Greenville, South Carolina, when he got the news that would change his life.

His second book, "Trust," had won the Pulitzer.

The novel, set in the world of high finance, teases the reader with the same story told in four different voices and four styles of writing.

The reader is left to discern: What is truth?

What is fiction?

How does power prop itself up with lies?

Diaz's books have now been published in more than 30 languages, and he's traveled all over speaking.

I caught up with him at the 2023 Sun Valley Writers' Conference, where I talked with him about the themes of his book, his love of words, and what it was like to win one of literature's top awards.

Franklin: Well, welcome.

Welcome to Sun Valley, to Idaho.

Have you been here before?

Hernan Diaz: I have never been here before.

I'm so thrilled to be here.

Franklin: I want to start by first congratulating you, um, for the Pulitzer Prize.

I mean, that is just incredible.

And I, I want to say two words to you and see what it evokes.

"Nose Dive."

Diaz: (Laugh.)

Yes.

Nose Dive.

Nose Dive, uh, uh, is a, is a restaurant in (laugh) Greenville, South Carolina.

Yeah.

Do you want to hear the whole story?

Franklin: Well, as I understand it, you had gone to the Nose Dive for some chicken and waffles.

Diaz: That's right.

Franklin: When you got the word that.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: .this book had won the Pulitzer Prize.

And you went outside.

Diaz: (Laugh.)

I did, I did.

I'm so sorry that this story is public, because, you know.

Franklin: It's a great story!

It's a very novelistic story.

Diaz: Um, uh, it's my fault, of course, that it is public.

But, uh, I told it, I, I, I told it to some journalist when my guard was low, and now it's out of the box.

So, yes.

I, oh.

Franklin: Believe me, there are women in, in Greenville, South Carolina who put it on the internet as well, 'cause they were so excited for you.

So you, you, Diaz: Is that so?

Franklin: Yes!

Diaz: Really?

Franklin: Yeah!

The head of the bookstore, the, she was just thrilled for you.

So you were at the Nose Dive restaurant.

You had chicken, you were going to order chicken waffles... Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: ...traditional food.

You find out, what, phone call?

Diaz: So yeah, I, I, I got, I got the news, and I, you know, of course I was, I was, I was very moved and, um, um, overwhelmed.

So, I, I left everything at, at the restaurant.

Um, I didn't finish my meal.

I went and sat down on the curb.

I was wearing a baseball hat, uh, which hides my baldness.

So I, I think I looked a little younger, and I was sort of balled up.

And these three, um, lovely old ladies come up and I, you know, "Honey, are you, are you okay?"

And, you know, I told them what had happened, and, uh, the three of us complete strangers were hugging, and they were taking down my name.

And so they were the first people with whom I celebrated.

Franklin: What was the emotion?

Diaz: The main takeaway is -- for me -- is I've been, I've been writing forever.

Since I learned how to write, I knew I wanted to, to be a fiction writer.

Um, and, and I did so.

I devoted my life to books in different capacities.

I'm a bookish person.

I'm a bookworm.

And I always kept on writing.

However, um, for a decade, over a decade, two decades almost, nobody would touch my stuff.

Nobody would, uh, publish my stories.

I couldn't get representation.

I didn't have an agent.

Um, uh, you know, I, it was, it was maddening.

It was very sad and frustrating and, and, uh, isolating.

And I kept writing.

Um, not because I thought one day I would win a, a big award or, or be published by, you know, a, a big publishing house.

I kept writing out of my love for sentences, and, and, and the pleasure I find in inhabiting language, in, in this, in this intense, deliberate way, and, and the beauty that I find, um, in, in syntax.

So of course, it's welcome and, and it's fun.

And it's an, it's an outsized honor that I, that I never thought, um, I would be worthy of.

Um, um.

But it's, but it's, believe me when I tell you, it's not the reason why I did all of this at all.

Franklin: Oh, yeah, no, I meant the emotion welling up in you.

Diaz: Oh yeah.

Franklin: .when you were on the, the curb.

Diaz: Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Um, and, you know, and, and the, I think the, the main reward, too, is the sense of communion that comes with all of this.

And, and, and the, and the possibility to, to get to know other writers.

I'm, I'm right here, you know, in Sun Valley, and there's so many heroes of mine, and I will meet some of them for the first time over this weekend.

And what an outsized privilege that is, you know.

Way more than, than any kind of, uh, institutional, uh, seal of, of approval that one may get, it is the conversation.

'Cause I do believe that, that literature is a conversation.

Franklin: And it, it's neat that it happened in Greenville and not in New York, and not in L.A. and not, you know, it happened in... Diaz: I agree with you.

Franklin: ...real America.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: Where they can sit down on the curb with you and.

Diaz: (Laugh.)

Franklin: .make sure you are okay.

In New York, people might have just walked right by you and said, "Eh, it's just another guy sitting on the curb with a baseball cap."

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: So that's, that's, I love.

Diaz: I never thought of it that way.

That's, you're probably right, you know.

Yes.

Franklin: Oh, they're just, they're so happy for you.

I read this book with, uh, no preconceived notions, because I don't like to read synopses or reviews or anything like that.

Diaz: Right.

Franklin: You know, I started it on a plane, and I was immediately pulled into it.

And about 130 pages in, all of a sudden, this story that I had been reading stopped.

And I started the next part of the -- I first thought, "Is this a book of short stories?"

Diaz: (Laugh) Franklin: And I started the next chapter, if you will, and it was -- I'm sorry, but it was just so poorly written.

And I thought, "Oh, God."

I thought, "but I'm interviewing this author.

I have to keep going."

Diaz: (Laugh.)

Franklin: And then a couple pages in, I was, "Okay, I get it now.

I get it."

But that's what you want, right?

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: This is a, a, a book that contains four different; it's polyphonic or, you know, that four different looks at a story.

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: And is written in four different ways.

And.

Diaz: That's right.

Franklin: So I assume the experience I had was what you might have been hoping a reader would have.

Diaz: Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it was a big gamble.

So the book opens with a whole novel within the novel that narrates the ascent of a fabulously wealthy couple.

Then that ends, and then we have a, sort of a shattered autobiography.

Um, and gradually we come to realize that this is the real man on whom the fictional tycoon was based, and he's not happy with the way in which he's been depicted.

And then we move on to the third section, and, which is written by the secretary of the real-life tycoon on whom the novel was written.

And as the secretary is looking back on her life, she's also; she's now an older woman.

She's also conducting some archival research where she finds the fourth and last section, which is the, uh, personal diary of the real-life tycoon.

So that, so that's the whole story.

Um, the, the first section is written in a, in a, in a highly stylized turn of the century, 19th to 20th, uh, prose.

Um, um, with long syntactical periods, with a very lush kind of, um, vocabulary and, and, um, you know, a hovering kind of gaze.

And from that, we, we, we change gears in a very grating way to, to meet this very loud, boisterous, uh, man.

I was saying it was a big gamble because -- and this came across when I was, when I was shopping the book around with my agent -- the people who were afraid of the second section were clearly not the right editors for me.

The idea was in a way to build this capital with the reader and then burn through it, like over the course of five pages.

But this also; I'm not trying to be clever here.

This also means trusting the reader and, and, um, and hoping that they would... Franklin: Yeah, I got it.

I got it.

I got the.

Diaz: Exactly.

Franklin: .I don't know if "conceit" is the right word.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: But I, I got what you were trying to do, and then I allowed myself to go into all the different styles of - I mean, talk to me about the, the desire to have these four very distinct voices.

They're written in different styles, as you mentioned.

Diaz: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Franklin: You even had a style guide for each.

Diaz: That's true.

Franklin: .section, so that the characters would be speaking, using certain words or not using certain words.

Why, why this structure?

Diaz: Um, well, why the structure.

You know, it, the book is among other things, perhaps primarily about capital in the United States and the accumulation of wealth.

And, and the epic narratives with which wealth tends to surround itself.

Um, every great fortune needs a self-legitimizing narrative.

I, I feel that power and money are extremely reliant on narrative.

They really need, they, they can't, um, prop themselves up and, and, and, and, and stay up without these narratives.

And, and, and this is why there is such an eagerness to be in control of, of, of the history and the way in which we chronicle, um, uh, any, any kind of powerful institution or fortune.

So, um, in these chronicles of wealth in the United States, there are no women.

This is not hyperbole.

It's not a figure of speech.

It's, literally the number of is zero.

So I thought, instead of merely themetizing the issue of voice or voicelessness, why not enact it, um, formally?

Why not have the reader experience, uh, what it is to be confronted by this loud voice that you thought was poorly written?

But it's the kind of voice that has been screaming at us from history books, that scream at us from newspapers.

Franklin: Oh, yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

Diaz: Exactly.

Franklin: It's a, it's a very typical kind of poorly-written autobiography.

Um, you know, I, I think you did it brilliantly.

And we have, uh, Mildred, wo is, is the wife of the tycoon, around, who's really the, the central, uh, figure of this.

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: I know for your research for this book, you went through diaries of the wives of high finance... Diaz: I did.

Franklin: ...people, and that it was a pretty moving experience for you.

Diaz: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, I did, um, do a lot of archival work, uh, for this book.

And, and, um, so I would request the papers of these, uh, wives of real-life American tycoons.

And their papers, for the most part in general, were kind of poorly cataloged.

And it was very, very clear, uh, that many of these papers had never been opened in, in, in, in a, in over a century.

So that, that was a very poignant aspect of, of the research, more than the, the, the details that I found in the notebooks themselves.

What came out, and I think this made it into the novel.

And these are things that I saw, sort of these women trying desperately to, to fill the pages of their journals without having sometimes anything to say.

So I remember this particular woman who, who said, who would write down, "at home, at home, at home," you know, week after week.

Franklin: On the surface, this seems like a, a pretty straightforward tale.

We, we have a extremely wealthy man who loves making money, talks about it all the time.

Diaz: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: And his wife, who loves giving it away, apparently.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: And, and yet there's a mystery throughout all of it, um, that, who really is she, you know?

And, and what is her import in his, in his life and in finance?

And I'm not going to give any of it away, um, but the reader needs to try and decide which of these voices about Mildred.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: .he, she, they, you know, believe to be true.

Or if they're like me, I just suspended judgment altogether.

Diaz: Oh, good for you.

Yeah.

Franklin: And I just said, you know, this is, these are, you know, four different stories.

I'm going to go along for the ride.

Diaz: Right.

Franklin: And I'm not going to make a decision.

But either way, you're presented with four.

Diaz: You know, what, uh, yeah, I feel there are two different experiences, uh, in, in this book, possibly, at least.

Uh, one is you, you, you get to the end and you confirm your suspicions, and that's totally fine.

And the other one is you get to the end, and, and, and, and it's a big, it's a big surprise.

Franklin: I do want to ask, you know, why you felt it was so important to set this in a world of high finance, of the making of money?

Diaz: Well, it was important to me that, that it be finance capital, as opposed to the production of tangible goods or concrete services.

I like the abstraction of finance capital, money that is sort of unmoored from any kind of goods.

Uh, that, that to me is very fascinating.

And, you know, capital begetting capital begetting capital, um, that is something I was interested in, because also this abstract form of money has a fictional or fictive quality to it, which is that it is, it is only upheld by confidence and by belief, um, in, in these instruments and their meaning.

If, if, if belief cracks, the system cracks.

So money and storytelling have a lot in common.

If you don't believe in a story, you lose interest.

It doesn't work.

There has to be, uh, you know, willful or not, to quote, uh, uh, Coleridge, there has to be a suspension of disbelief; otherwise it doesn't, it doesn't work.

Franklin: I was really, uh, drawn to the female characters.

Drawn to Mildred, um, the, the wife.

And then drawn to -- Ida?

Eeda?

Diaz: It's your decision.

Franklin: (Laugh.)

Ida.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: Who's the reporter in a way.

I mean, she's, she's, uh, a ghostwriter.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: And, um, so these are very strong female.

Diaz: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: .characters.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: And was it, uh, a task to write them, or was it a joy?

Diaz: It was, it was both.

You know, I was concerned.

I, I knew the novel wouldn't land if those voices came across correctly.

You know?

Um, uh, I was also concerned, uh, you know, I think, I think the issue of appropriation is, is a serious one.

And I, I do take it seriously.

I don't necessarily think that that is the end of the conversation.

I think it's the beginning of the conversation, I, I think.

Franklin: About whether, uh, someone who identifies as male can write about somebody who's female?

Diaz: For example.

For example.

Franklin: Right.

Yeah.

Diaz: Yes.

And, um, uh, I think, you know, if literature has a duty, which is a debatable notion for me, perhaps it would be that.

The, the, the ability to imagine what it is to be someone else, and, and give others the ability to imagine what it is to be someone else.

If we relinquish that, then, um, I, I fail to see the, at least the moral point of literature, the ethical, its ethical implications, you know?

Franklin: Why did you want a reader to be confronted or taken through these different voices?

Diaz: I try to avoid exposition as much as I can.

Franklin: Right.

Diaz: I, I love it when, when form is doing the thing that I'm trying to say.

When, when the book enacts its own meaning materially.

Um, so I thought a, a novel about voice ought to be polyphonic, ought to be choral, ought to have this, this, this kind of arrangement, you know, this.

Franklin: Including dissonance.

Diaz: Including dissonance.

Well, music is a big, is a big, is a big presence in.

Franklin: Yes, it is.

Diaz: In the, in the book.

So, so it is a novel of, of counterpoints, you know, in, in a, in a musical sense of, of, of the term.

Also, honestly, fun.

Let's not forget about that.

You know, I, I want to have fun when I write.

I want to have fun when I read.

It's pointless for me without it.

And this seemed more fun, you know.

If, if I'm going to talk about this political issue, I don't want to be a, a finger-wagging, pedagogical kind of writer who is, you know, uh, uh, sort of writing a, a monograph of sorts of, you know.

So, so I thought this would be more fun to have the reader experience these voices.

Franklin: And I, and I like the fun that you have with the puns.

With "trust," with "bonds," with "futures," all of which have, you know, double, triple entendres to them.

Diaz: Oh, there's so many in the book.

Franklin: There's so many ways that you can look at the word "trust."

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: Either from a financial standpoint or trusting somebody.

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: Or bonds between people and bonds.

Futures.

Yeah, you were having a lot of fun there.

I could tell.

And.

Diaz: Yeah, there, there are many, I mean, if, if, uh, if you have nothing better to do with your life, (laughs) there, there are a lot of Easter eggs in, in, in the book.

There are many doubles, there are many mirrorings.

There are many, yes, puns and, and, and words that are doing many things at the same time.

I'm a sucker for that, yeah.

Franklin: Ultimately, in our own lives, and, and particularly now, with the internet and on the cusp of AI, all of us are presented with these different voices of truth.

Is it a reflection, a commentary as well on the, uh, firehose of information we have, of all the people hanging their shingles out for truth, trying to get you to trust them and their message, that we're all dealing with now?

Diaz: Yeah, to, to some extent.

But I am concerned with the relationship between fiction and truth.

And this book is very much invested in exploring the, the evanescent boundary between, between fiction and history, for example.

This, this is, this is something at the core of, of the book.

And, and also how, how power and money have the ability to bend and align reality.

I think, I think this is something we, we experience, uh, on a daily basis with, with, with media.

And the relationship between writing and power have always been extremely intimate.

It's, it's not for nothing that writing was kept, you know, a, a, a sort of secret or privilege of, of the, of the elite for, for lit, for centuries, for millennia, I should say, rather.

You know, literacy is a very, very new phenomenon.

Franklin: Yes.

And the tycoon in this book is doing everything he possibly can to keep control of the narrative.

Uh.

Diaz: Yes.

Absolutely.

So, uh, one, one thing, just a quick example.

He's so displeased with, uh, how he comes off in, uh, this novel that he actually buys a majority stake in the publishing house and makes sure that the book is out of circulation.

And because he's such a big donor, um, you know, the New York Public Library and so on and so forth, he, he, he manages to sort of withdraw the book from the public library system and, and erases the book from, from reality.

And, and that to me was such a powerful, uh, image.

The, the idea that, that someone can be wiped out.

Franklin: Now, it was very important to you as well, the graphic look of the book, right?

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: The way it, the, the typeface is and the way it's on the page.

For instance, the journals.

Um, talk about that, the visual part of this book.

Diaz: Yeah.

Um, you know, I, I, I'm a very visual writer.

When I, whenever I'm, you know, I, I have a manuscript, I look, I look at pages without reading them, I, to see how text-heavy they are, to see line breaks.

Um, it's, it's immensely important to me.

And the fourth part of the book is, is a bit of a prose poem.

Um, and the second part of the book is, you know, it's made of textural shrapnel.

Everything is sort of broken.

Franklin: "Notes to self."

Diaz: Yeah, exactly.

Franklin: "Write more about this."

Diaz: Exactly.

Franklin: Which is great.

Diaz: But I wanted, um, the pages to look just so.

And, um, uh, I don't know if it, I'm hoping readers will feel that it.

Maybe, maybe not consciously, but, but I, I, I feel those little things compound over the course of whatever, 400 pages.

Franklin: Little things make a difference.

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: Um, and talk about, uh, what may seem like a little thing, but is a big thing, which is writing in pen.

Diaz: Yes.

Franklin: Writing, handwriting... Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: ...for you, and not typing.

Diaz: Yeah.

Well, I'm, I'm a lousy typist.

I think it all comes from that in, in part.

And also, you know, there is, there's this sensual element to, to the pen that I love, and a different relationship to, to the page.

You know, a, a, word processor tells you, uh -- commands you -- how, how to interact with that space.

You know, the, the options are, are pre-given to you.

Uh, whereas, uh, the page is yours.

You can do whatever you want with it.

Franklin: Yeah.

Jot notes all around it, and you write, you, you don't write drafts and then rewrite.

You're writing as you go along, right, and correcting?

Diaz: Yeah.

I'm a very meticulous -- it doesn't mean good; it just means that meticulous, um, editor, uh, of, of myself and of others.

Actually, I have a hard time reading without editing in my head.

I wish I could, because sometimes it takes away from, from pleasure, you know?

So, most of my work, uh, you know, in, in a writing day is, is editing my own stuff.

Franklin: And it's, is it true you've been able to hang on to the same pen for -- it's 20 years?

Diaz: It's totally true.

It's, it's totally true.

It's, it's in my hotel room.

It's in my room.

Franklin: Okay.

(Laugh.)

Diaz: But it's, it's, yeah, it's true.

I mean, it will get lost one day.

Franklin: No!

Diaz: No, no, no.

It will.

There's not, I mean, but it will get lost.

Franklin: (Laugh.)

Diaz: But, um, I, yeah.

I, I, I cannot not use it.

Yeah.

Franklin: When, um, people finish this book and, and walk away from it, put it on the shelf, what, what do you hope they take away from it?

Diaz: I hope that perhaps I will have induced a, a sort of a, a joyful form of paranoia in, in the reader.

To, would, by which I mean, uh, a healthy form of suspicion.

I think we should always be alert and critical and, and, and awake when, when we read.

And, and this is the, the book is, is, is a kind invitation to, to that kind of attitude.

Franklin: Kate Winslet has, um, optioned this, is this correct for a.?

Diaz: That is totally correct.

Franklin: Is it a, a series or a?

Diaz: It is.

It's a series.

It's, uh, it's, uh, being made by HBO and yes, um, Kate is, um, both starring in it and producing it.

And, um, it's, it's of course been such a trip.

You know, it's.

Franklin: Talk about trust.

Diaz: That's.

Franklin: You got to hand a book over to.

Diaz: Yeah.

It was.

Franklin: .to the corporate high-finance world of Hollywood, too.

Diaz: It was a very long process.

I can't stress that enough.

And it, I feel I aged maybe, you know, seven years in three weeks.

But it is in the right hands.

Uh, it's, the, the director is a genius.

And of course, Kate Winslet is, is, um, a genius.

There's no other word.

And, and she; her knowledge of film and cinematic language, uh, is just so deep.

The, the ideas she's already brought to this project are invaluable.

Franklin: Well, I will look forward to that.

Diaz: Me, too.

Franklin: I really want to see how it's articulated.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: You know, in a different medium.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: A fifth -- or more, now - voice, right, because.

Diaz: That's right.

Franklin: .film will bring to it yet another way of looking at things.

Diaz: Yeah.

Franklin: So thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me.

Diaz: Oh thank you.

Thank you so much.

Franklin: I really appreciate it and.

Diaz: Such a pleasure.

Franklin: .congratulations again on, on all your success, too.

Diaz: Thank you so much.

Franklin: You've been listening to Hernan Diaz, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his novel, "Trust."

Our conversation was recorded at the 2023 Sun Valley Writers' Conference.

My thanks to our team and to conference organizers for inviting us back for our 16th season at the renowned event.

If you'd like to watch any of the 75 interviews we've recorded at the conference over the years, check out our website.

You'll also find all the interview on the "Conversations from the Sun Valley Writers' Conference" playlist on YouTube.

I'm Marcia Franklin.

Thanks so much for spending time with us.

(Music) Announcer: Major funding is provided by the Idaho Public Television Endowment and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.