[Music Plays] During the Vietnam War, men of every color stoo along that watchtower and fought a war that none of u will ever forget.

I'm Chris Moore on this special Blac Horizons will visit with some of those men black and white, and talk about the wa that tore the country apart and brought some of u a little closer together.

[Music Plays] There was a French author and existentialis named Camu, published a book some time ago and it was called A Plague and the the essence of the stor behind that.

When something become so threatening to mankind, mankind existing, that we seem to forge our own individual issues and seen the pull together when we all ar threatened by a common goal.

And I think that i best demonstrated at wartime.

You will find that men and women from a million backgrounds come togethe for a common cause, and that's in defens of their country, or to be an aggresso in some incidents, force that country concerned, seem to get along better and seem to forget about their own little pett and individual difference.

If I could add something let's not forget that I think it's it's common that a lot of returnin warriors, returning veterans, you know, after the war, you know, there's this feeling that well, I don't I don't want to remind yo about this.

And Joe doesn' want to remind me about this.

So you kind o never make that contact.

Now, it does happe in some cases where those friendship continue.

And it's been very fortunate.

But I think a lot of guys have a misconceptio that with war's over and, you know, we we've been told to forge about it, to kind of get on with your life.

And some people really mak that attempt.

Yeah!

And with that you may lose some friendships and leav some friendships behind, because I think we all experienced i in guys in our unit, you know, be the white, black, Hispani that, you know, we said, well, we'll get together after war you know, after the war is over.

We'll meet so-and-so.

And oftentimes it didn't happe because, you know, we don't want to be reminded of reminding each other about you know, what happened.

Johnny, you nodding your hea in agreement with that?

Actually, I do agree.

I think that in a combat, combat environment, often time we live together.

We're not separated by states and border and those kind of obstacles and seeing eac seeing each other every day.

We do gro an affection toward each other once we come back home.

If I'm from Pittsburg and the Hill district and Gary is from Arizona, and, you know, the likelihood of u maintaining, we may start initiall with some correspondence and perhap some telephone calls.

But I think that onc we get back to our individual residences, we don't have tha daily contact.

And most often times i it abates through attrition versus a, an intent.

I'm busy with you everyday life.

Exactly.

And it often appear that we're not making that concerted effor to stay in touch.

But you know again after the after the years, after the the year go by it starts to fade.

It certainly is a frightening thought, but certainly if we were togethe for five years, we would really be in lov with each other under those conditions.

Gary Redford is is a gu who never let his friendship fade fro his radio telephone operator.

As our T.O.

And I've go a couple of pictures here that Gary's brought tha show them with their 16 standing in the middle of a stream and and also just standing ther smiling together.

Who was this guy to you care?

He was my ar toe for six months.

And surprisingly he became an auto because he had a speec impediment and a lot of guy didn't want to carry the radio because of the extra weight.

You know, you had to carry an extra batt with all your ammo, water, you know, demolition and everything.

Thats your number one talk Right!

Because you can communicat exactly right.

Well we used to put the antenna, tuck the antenna on, so he couldn' tell who the RTO was.

Especially they didn't know I was the sergean so they wouldn't get me.

Yeah, but so he wanted to become my auto.

And surprisingly enough, when he picked the horn up he didn't stutter.

That speech impediment lef the most of the time.

Sometimes he would He would start.

He always called m Sergeant Radford.

And, I mean, I can see him you know, right now, standing ther saying that to him.

Everybody called me a ranger but he always called me sergeant And he became real close to me.

And unfortunately we left him behind in Vietnam.

And he's an MIA today.

What's what's his name?

Lewis.

Lewis Howard Junior.

He's from Macon, Georgia.

How did you first get togethe to become such fast friends?

Well.

Besides the closeness of yo being the platoon sergeant.

And he had to stick with you.

Well, he wanted to become.

He wanted to become the RTO.

So let him become the RTO.

And you know your side by sid for 24 hours a day.

And we'd be.

We'd stay out for 100, 100 day at a time, you know, 101st.

It's the way we operated on three day resupply.

And, you know, you'r with a guy like that constantly.

You know, you you know he becomes your brother.

You know, he's your friend He's everything to you because you're all ou there trying to survive with, you know, the minimum, minimu of everything.

And, you know, yo just kind of on each other 100%.

What happened?

We were on a Firebase Ripcord which was in the northern National Valley.

It was in the infiltratio routes, the North Vietnames coming down.

You actually had a eight millimeter film camera?

Yeah.

And and you shot a lot of the film that peopl are looking at right now of jet swooping dow and helicopters flying by, guys sitting by their howitzers.

You shot this in what year?

In 1970 July.

.

.

From July 6th or from July 1s to July 7th of 1970.

My mother sent me one of thes little Kodak and 1 in 1 of these little 8 million projector with about five rolls of film.

And I just started filmin what action I could, you know, safel take, which was quite a bit.

And we were pulled off Ripcord.

There was a hill 1000 which was above Ripcor and they deemed that necessary that, that he'll be take to keep Ripcord operational.

So on the 6th of Jul we moved off Ripcord.

We were patrolling toward Hill 1000.

There's a recon elemen working in front of us, and recon element was approachin Hill 1000, and that's when the VA opened up on the and it wounded the whole six man team including you, including.

No, no we were behind at the time.

I didn't even know the reco element was in front of us.

All right.

And so I was appointed to go and assist these.

The recon team were linked u with a recon team.

And as soon as we get u to where the equipment was, they they opened u with a barrage of RPGs.

And I turned around and ran.

I panicked.

I there was so much contact i this area was becoming daily and Lewis Howar he's the only one that put down a field of fire.

And I remember runnin and I heard a mortar tube pop and I just ran all the harder.

And he's the only on that put down any fire.

And he broke contac and linked up with us.

And the next da we would have to take this hill.

Our was point a sign.

Point duty.

I had the point of point, man.

So what he di is we took straws, and whoever got the short straw would take point.

Two white guys pulled the straws first and they refused.

Refused to go, but becaus we knew what we were into.

And I wasn't going to forc anybody to do it.

The third time he drew the shor straw Lewis did?!

Yeah Lewis did!

He looked at he looked at m and I looked at him.

He says, well I was up there yesterday.

He says, we'll go up.

And I said, there's a patc amongst the infantrymen.

Nobody Gets Left Behind!

If you're you're killed.

You know, you do anythin you can do to get that guy.

That's right You know that that was a pact.

That was an unwritte law amongst infantrymen.

Next day, we, go up the hil and file formation.

They hit it pretty.

They pondered it pretty hard with artiller before we went up.

And soon as the artiller stopped saying, no, you're you know, you're comin and got up to about there was a, there was I remember we braked there was a a formation of rocks.

I remember we took a brea there as soon as we no more in 30s we moved ou and they hit the point element.

He was hi in the second and third man.

They were able to crawl back.

He was able to yell for a medic.

We put a push on to try t get to him and as soon as we'd start to move forward they just open up on us and they were just, you know more or less, you know, not what amounted to becaus they were in dug in positions and we were, you know I knew we could get behind trees and that this went o for quite a while.

And I tried to flank the on the left.

And the rest of the compan were in single formation.

They went around the right sid of the hill, but, we just couldn't push an any further.

This went on t for about six hours.

We were told to regrou and we're re grouped.

Assistan machine gunner was missing Charles Beals who was a white guy.

So I remember crawling to go see where he was because nobody kne whether he was hit or whatever.

And I saw him laying ther face down in the prone position.

And I remember crawling for him and that's I was hit with a satchel charg and I was knocked unconscious.

They were able to get to me and we were tol to pull back off the hill.

And they brought the area, the Cobras the aerial rocket artillery in.

And, yo know, prior to hill up and I was medivac off, we also los Michael Grimm.

He was killed.

I think it was 13 13 wounded.

And.

I remember I got on the medevac was taking the ripcord, received a little bi of medical attention there.

Then I went, I don't know what hospital but I remember they put me on a log bird which was a resupply bird.

You know, I didn' I didn't get Medevac off report.

I was on a log bird.

Michael Grim was there at my feet.

You know, he was dead.

And I remember it was night tim and we lifted off.

And, you know, I remembe looking at Hill 1000, you know, I left my best friend there.

You know, it was hard, and I. I told him I'm coming back for you.

I don't know how, but you know I'll be I'll be back somehow.

And, that hill was assaulte by five different infantry companie up until the 23rd.

And, you know, we never did take it.

You know, it's just.

So I'm sitting her listening to Gary, and it's a day I carried a ten and just a lot of thing while he was speaking.

I was on Operatio Tech, Operation Texas, and I remember when we wer at our staging area, I mean, I haven' I've never seen so many troops.

I mean, we just we were al I kept thinking, what?

We're getting ready to go where?

Somebody out I mean, we just had bodies.

I mean, just we had a nice nigh that night, and we went out and party and had a good time.

In the next morning, we assemble to take our choppers and, and they flew us off to this hill, and we got of and we walked up the other side.

I walked up the hill.

We were going dow the other side, and my platoon sergeant was telling me get down here.

I sat on a gravestone marker.

We were going down the hill.

And I said, because I was trying to res my pack board, you know, like yo said, carrying the extra amm and the batteries.

So I had my back to the hil going down the hill, and he was telling me, McCoy, get down her and I'm being wise guy because I'm tired and aggravate and hot.

And I turne and I said, I'm coming.

And when I turned to sa that around ricochete right off the top of the tombstone, the head marker, I said, oh, and I just dove.

And it just seemed like the sk fell.

I mean, we drew so much fire.

It was just it was incredible.

And, an and I could really relate.

My sergeant, he was, he was carrying mortar rounds on his back.

He got a direct hit and two o the rounds on his back went off.

Plus obviously the one that hit him.

And I said, oh you know what I mean.

And then there was a guy i front of me, a private Lee.

He got shot.

So he was laying there and and was trying to call a corpsman, to come up to assist him.

And before the court could ge there, he got shot through the on through.

The hand came out as elbow.

So that took care of an potential medical assistance.

And I'm telling Lee just to just be still.

We'll get you some help.

And then the next thing I knew, he just kind of looked at m as if to say, thanks anyway.

And he just die right there in front of me.

Now I got him dea in front of me.

The corpsman sho and back with me.

Sergeant Delgado blown to pieces.

And and you talked about a si hour battle.

It could have been.

It was somewhere aroun six months.

It seemed lik they turned into night.

You got to race trace rounds ricocheting.

You got rounds going off.

This was bedla that I had never phantom that that I would be involved in.

But I think the thing that' probably the most poignant to me was that when that battl was reported here stateside, they indicated tha our casualties were moderate.

Now, I knew we just got ou head, our heads, handed to us.

And if this was moderate you know what I mean?

And it was it was I really wanted the to tell the truth that we were gettin waxed out here.

But as I understand is that later on, you know, certainl we had to keep the morale of the country u and those kind of things.

But it was just it was jus such a powerful night for me.

And admittedly, that night I fell asleep.

I just couldn't take it anymore.

I was completely exhausted.

And, I mean the battle raged around me, and I just knew tha the attack was coming.

We called in for naval gunfire.

They denied.

They denied us because the they indicated we were too close to a friendly village.

And I'm cussing now on the radi because I'm trying to get them to understand that we're drawing fir from this friendly village.

You know what I mean?

So eventually they di send in some the 80 inches ou and then out in the water.

They sent in some rounds, but the dayligh fortunately caught me.

I woke up or came to or whateve it was.

And at that tim we were getting online to go sweep this village.

It was then our responsibility like you said, in the infantry to get these boy that got hit out of there.

And I could just remembe struggling with this with, with Lee he still had his law on and his ammo and I'm cryin and not running out my nose, and I'm pulling him throug the bushes and, you know, but I felt real proud of mysel because I, I just refuse to leave him in the face of all this is just somethin that I felt that was my responsibility.

So I really feel you in term of, you know, my occupation in the militar was ambushes, blockin forces, operations, sweeps.

That's what I did fo the 14 months I was in Vietnam.

So, I mean, I thought I mean, I was a tunnel rat.

I did the whole nine.

So I mean, I just, that camaraderie that we developed, you know and I hear a there was a sergeant his name was Sergeant Hunter, white guy, older gu 50 or something.

And we talked all the time.

We were real cool.

And and I'm saying that he didn't have any busines being there, especially at that age.

And he got sho and and he was mortally wounded.

You know, this wasn't going rea well for me.

You know what I mean?

This is nothin that I really had opted for.

But again through those experiences, I started to form a callus started to form, and I started to becom a little bit more acclimated, if that's such a thing t in my environment.

But it was, it was just, I want to say traumatic, but I think that would be putting i mildly.

You know, John, you wer you were saying moderate casualties.

You know, there is no such thin as like casualties.

You try to like, tell one of us, you know you had like casualties.

You try to tell a mothe or father or a a wife, you know that was there.

It was there a son or whateve you had, like casualties.

There is no such thing.

You know, just so many the final things in life you sort of like miss you mentioned by falling aslee and I'm sitting here, I don't ever remembe going to sleep in Vietnam.

Okay.

I try all the time to remember.

Did I ever go to sleep.

And I cannot remembe ever going to sleep.

I can remembe I can remember one stress, because I served in the 101s year in the war in 65, 66, and we had a that first 65, 66 we had only 16 days in the whole year when we didn' make contact, 16 days.

The only time we stopped is when we got in a firefigh and we fell on the ground.

It was sometim guys would be hoping we get down bush so we could stop take a break.

Yeah there were a period of time I walked in nigh for at least 16 to 18 days, and I don't right now, I canno I try to recall, did I ever go to slee in Vietnam?

And I know I had to write but I don't remember it.

That's that' how alert that I was doing it.

Never being tired all the time.

I remember being tire all the time.

Probably drained of sleep too.

But I had a little gam I used to play with myself, you know, and it was a gam I played my team.

I that don't mean nothing, you know, like death, fear, whatever it was it don't mean you're tired.

It don't mean nothing.

And once the guy says it don't mean nothing.

And it was sort o like a self-hypnosis notion.

We would psych our sel when we were exhausted.

We look up at a mountai and we got to go up that mouth.

And he said, for having us he said, don't mean I remembe that don't mean nothing.

These were obviou coping mechanisms that guys use just to get through the da because it did mean something.

Yeah, it did mean something.

But you kind of had a se your tongue that, you know you're going to survive this by, by whatever means necessary you know.

And sometimes that necessitate your dark side coming out.

And I know I always go a lot of inspiration from from that gu who was in front of me when I, was tired and scare and thirsty and, you know, hungr and everything else.

But here' this little guy in front of me that had no business being in the infantry, but he's lugging his 75 poun rucksack and he's taking on step after another.

So I take on step after the other, and then the guy behind me takes one step but it's just an indication that we kept o doing what we had to do.

You drew upon on another strength and didn't.

You almost weren't allowe to show any weaknesses.

Were you right?

It just it wasn't time.

I mean, that that wasn' part of the equation.

I think that often times the, there was always a nex you didn't really have a time, a lot of time to reflect on wha was really going on with you.

It was whatever.

Where did I go from here?

What do I do next as opposed t I always like to say that during comba wasn't the time to be scared.

You know you were scared, obviously, but whenever you could ge some downtime or some reflection time, you'd probably shak to death, probably, you know, just fall completely apart.

But at the time, wasn't time, but the anticipatio and then the adrenaline pumped afterwards I think early.

What was room for individual?

I think the whole the whole thing about the military, the team effor where no one was an individual.

Therefore you, you know the group got tired.

The group was scared.

There was neve where you felt alone.

Right Yeah!

By yourself, I mean, i if something horrible going on the team was experiencin something horrible.

You know, when someone else go wounded, you were wounded.

So it was the way we sort of like, was spreading all this horro and all this pain.

We spread it ou so that we could endure it.

No individual person endured.

And we used to have a thin in my recon team that every man was a percentage of the next ma will to live.

And the moment you like you reduce my will to live because you take away fro my 100% and I need 100%.

And I guess the thin that that I'm thinking about is, is this the only tim that we as men have this kind of bon when there's that common enemy?

And that's that' what I continue to reflect on.

Let me say, as yo recall, Chris, we went over to the North Sid for a Veterans Day and probabl one of the most moving periods during that time of of thi rededication of the monument, if we were all standing there black, white.

The gunships some Hueys flew over and two of main, three Cobras two of man, everybody did thi at the same time.

Every everybod that was familiar with that soun looked up at the same time.

So just in terms of tha camaraderie that that knowing that everybody that share that or experience that new and everybody looke and that laid me out because that mean that we were still connected.

We were stil speaking of connected, I guess, Gary, the only tim that you must have felt as though you were leavin Louis was behind was when you were being taken off Ripcord and you could see the hill where you knew he was He was still there.

I was hoping we'd fly over i so I could look down.

But, you know, it was, you know, too much activit coming off of the hill.

But, that was my thought You know, one of the.

You see, if I could spot him.

But you didn't let it go there.

I mean, you've carried thi with you for years.

I never even told my famil this.

And in 1989 I told my oldest son, I drive truck and he used to go with me.

I always told him this stor about this black guy.

You know, I owed my life to hi at least twice.

And the first time when he wa the only one laying down fire.

And the next tim when you went up there and he never got anything Never.

Not a medal, no recognition not even a piece of his stuff that was sen home, was broken into.

I found out from his brothe later, you know, but, and I always wante to tell his mother and father, you know, he was wit guys that cared about him.

That always bothered me.

I just didn't want somebody t think we just left them there.

So in 1989 my mother was going to Florida, my mother and my siste and I told her this story, and I wrote a letter, and I says, I want you to se if you can find this family.

And she found the family, and she went to the genera genealogical part of the library and pulled up the newspape clippings, and she found the cemetery was buried at and the caretaker remembered it.

And he's there's a ston there beside his dad.

His dad was wounded in Worl War two, and naturally, he's not burie there.

But, the family, there was only tw brothers left out of the family.

The mother and father had passe on, and the one sister.

And so they drove to Atlanta where Guy, the youngest brother, lives.

And they were sitting there whe he came home from work.

And you know, he just broke down, you know, he couldn't believe i after all these years.

Then, he sent me up the fla that he was, you know, the when they had the services they gave me that flag.

And I talked to hi and his brother Guy, who's in Detroit, and Guy and I had become, you know, real good friends.

And, you know, we see eac other, you know, quite a bit, but not a thing, Chris that I wanted to say.

Another thin that spurred me on was, right at the same time lif magazine in 1989 did a ten special event that happened in the 1980s.

And in 1982, that' when the wall was dedicated.

And they had a fold u picture of the wall.

You know whose names righ there?

Lewis Howard Junior.

He's the only Louis Howard You can read it n the picture?!

Louis Howar junior killed in Vietnam.

And, you know, right ther in the front pages, his is his name.

But there was somethin about your friendship that you still couldn't let go You had to do something else.

What do I go back?

Yeah, yeah.

Well I, after about eight years of, Talking to the governmen and everything, they, they finally allowed m to go over to Vietnam and accompan a recovery team into this area.

And when you accomplishe that recovery team, you went back in on a Russian made helicopter.

You got a picture of it?

Yeah.

Now my 17 and you all actuall landed on on rip record, right.

Well that's on the firebase Right.

And this is real mountainou jungle area.

But they told m because it was called Agent Blue instead of Agent Orange it was just a color.

They says that's why th vegetation it never grew back.

Never grew back.

What was it like to come back in that?

First of all just to be riding in another cho Well, when I left home after all these year of planning this, you know, I didn't know how I was goin to row boat over if I had to, you know, I didn't know ho I was going to do it.

But after all these year when my wife was drawing, driving me the airport that's when I just fell apart.

I mean, I wasn't I was feeble, you know, I wasn't even sur if I was going to be able to get out of the ca and get on the airplane.

And once I got on that airplane, then I. I felt pretty good.

I flew to Detroit and Ted Howard, I met hi at the Detroit airport, spent an hour with him befor I went over and, you know, told hi I was going to do everything possible to, you know try to find his brother.

And I linked up with a recovery team in a way, Vietnam and trained with the for three days.

We flew ou the ripcord, took us three days to get out ther because of the high winds, and we landed on Ripcord and it was just as everything, just as it was lef after 26 years and ten days.

It's such a remote area.

Nobody's going in there.

It was ordinance still ordinance.

Oh, just everything laying up.

There are all kinds of artiller runs.

In fact, they ha the Vietnamese had trouble getting them to land there because of the amoun of ordnance, ordnance they could have set dow on the road, and it could still be active.

So they had thes little anti-personnel, bomb, let's say, called them.

They were in the 105 run and a Chinook crashed on on Ripcord on the 18th of July and it set the ammo dump off.

And those Ron's cooked of and a lot of them exploded.

These little anti-personnel things were all over the place and nobody knew what the expectanc was on these things.

So, we sat in the helicopter for 40 minutes and I was able t collect my thoughts and, you know, get myself together.

But once I got on the ground.

I've never been at such peac with myself.

I, you know, I. You know I've never had that feeling, you know in, in all these years.

And I was at peace with mysel and, you know, I felt so good.

And, are on a way to ripcor or on the way to Hill 1000.

We went past our NDP, our nigh defensive position, the position we had nigh the night before I covered team actually walked off Ripcor and headed to this.

Right?

I mean, this is a very I couldn't believe tha we did what we did then.

I mean, you know, carried the wounded, carrie all our equipment.

I mean, it's you migh not realize how rugged it was.

I didn't realize i until I got back there, how rugged it really was.

You forget when you're young.

And we went throug our night where we had the, NDP that night before ther were foxholes sitting there, and in front of my position there was a tripwire brackets from the trip, flare we put out.

The brackets were still o the tree, started up 1000 and cam to the formation of rocks.

We stopped that 50m, passed out.

We found the helmet, found two size ten boots.

And if you if you look, Lewis Howar was dog tags in his boots.

The shoelace on the picture that you have, he has that on his boo right now.

I told him we lost the assistan machine gunner 50m to the left went up the ridge line, I went we were searching that area.

Couldn't find it, but there wa this patch of elephant grass.

Because I remember that day crawling through thi elephant grass, because it was kind of funn that that being out in the middle of jungle as soon as I saw that elephant grass, I knew I was a the right spot, so I missed it.

They searched it again, and here they found a machin gun sitting there and it was facing toward a bunker.

The bunker was only 25 in front of it.

It was sitting ther right on these guys.

Yeah, right on them And the Bible.

The bipod legs had rusted off.

It was laying there on its side.

We found the size seve regular boot.

Now Lewis Howard he was 511 weight 140 pounds.

And according to his brother he did wear a size 1010 regular.

It's not in the militar records.

Then I checked with Charle Beale's family.

He was five foot four weight, 114 pounds.

So you know you can't see right.

Unbelievable that the and plu a lot of other equipment.

We found the machine gu you found as well.

Yeah We brought the machine gun back.

Another funny thing we found tw Budweiser beer cans there.

You also found this canteen?

Yeah, I found this.

I felt that everythin was sacred up there, and.

I left everything there.

And looking ove the one side of the hill, whether this was fro one of our guys or one of the othe infantry companies that salted I found this canteen.

It was still in the pouch.

It had a, you know, you remembe those magazine holders?

You had a lot of guys.

Well we were the band delirious, but we we carried extra amm in those pouches.

The round going through tha through the magazines.

The amm there went through this.

I gues it went into the guy's belly because you could see the bel where they'd cut it, you know, it was a nice clea cut and part of the canvas was still here.

They told m not to bring that part back becaus when you went through customs, if they saw something like that they might you might confiscate it.

But, I don't kno whose canteen this was, but maybe someday I'll find out.

I still got the dirt from.

Yeah.

What does it mean to you?

Sit there and hold that and have had this experienc to go back to find it?

Yeah, it it was reall unbelievable, you know, just to, I honestly though they would be in my mind.

I knew i wasn't going to happen, but I almost thought they woul be waiting there for me, you know?

You know, you came back for us.

I, you know, I just.

I kno it sounds strange, but, you know, I almost I almost pictured that then then I thought, well we're going to find a skull, you know, we'll find a skull or something and you know we didn't find any remains.

And what we theorized, the they held the hill till the 23rd.

When we evacuated, they hel that hill at least till then.

And if they were killed which I positively don't know, I thought I didn't I didn't expect to find anythin because if you'd read the the amounts of airstrike that were put on that hill and the amounts of artillery it was unbelievable.

And, you know, yet we found thes two concentrations, you know, concentration of equipment, and you kept the maps all this time Yeah, I had the map You knew exactly where to go?!

I knew excatly I knew exactly where to go!

I had the maps.

They used all that globa satellite positioning stuff.

I had my ma and I just charted off the map, and I though we were a little bit too far to the lef going down the ridgeline.

But they were using their, their syste and but we, you know, hit the right spot you know, hit right on it.

And when we find the equipment you know, it was right where you kno exactly where I said it was.

Did you have to sit down?

Did yo what did you do at that moment?

At that moment it didn't sin in, Chris, because I was we found this stuff I couldn't believe it.

When we found the helmet the first thing we come across was his helmet and it had a bullet hole in it had a bullet hole in it.

We couldn' find the helmet liner.

His one shoe had a hole in it.

Found part of a rut sack part of a 16, a water purification tablets.

You found quite a bit of stuff, and it really didn't sink in because then I was, you know, trying to find a grav is what I was, what I was trying to find.

And after all this bombardment I mean, we would have never taken this hill.

It was assaulted by fiv different infantry companies.

They had a trench u over the top of the hill that was covered.

And it was a lot o it was still intact.

And then they had fightin positions going out to, you know going all around the hilltop, the tunnels, going out to that because Lieutenant McCall, I called hi I hadn't talked to him for 25 years to ask hi if, you know, I told him I was going over for anything that he could ad that, you know, and he says he remembere throwing 25 hanger nades at that one bunker, and he say he knew he was getting them.

But he says they just kept you know, popping up.

And I know why no because they had that so dug in interlocking trenching you know, trench and all.

They do i step back and step over it Right!

And there's no clear sho because the grenade fall.

Then almost the positio becomes a grenade stop.

And the walls of th of the trench.

Yeah!

Protect them!

Yeah!

You know, with the secondar firing position, you know, Mike, you you counsel lot of Vietnam vets and you two and I think that have gon through the kinds of things that all of you hav really gone through and, what is it that you tell them?

What can you tell them abou brotherhood, about comrades, especially comrade lost in arms?

Because one of the thing that guys always talk about when they come back is like why me?

Why did I walk?

Why did Johnny walk awa from all that, all that carnage?

It was like, why did any of yo walk away from all of that?

And I know that's a questio you ask all the time.

What do you guys say?

Well, I think if I could us what some of the things that that Gary sai and I, I think it's true for a lot of things you know, we have experienced acts of incredibl courage on a daily basis.

And while, you know, Louis Howar may not have received the medal, probably the greatest testamen to what he did is in Gary's min and those he served with.

And I think the best memoria to Louis Howard is the one that that that Gary has.

And I think that's tru for all of us, for for our comrades for our friends.

And I think we try and pas that on to, you know, other veterans who, you know, are experiencing you know, similar, thoughts and feelings.

I guess I kind o looked at it philosophically.

I did question that a a matter of fact, I questioned when I was in combat.

I remember sitting on a bunke one night and I'm an only son.

And I kept wondering I said, if I got killed, this conversation.

Right.

If I got killed the night that would be the end of our family name.

Well, fortunately I do have a son now and then.

I have a grandson, so?

So the name will wil continue on.

But but again, in terms of.

Why me?

I really, like I said I made it really philosophical in tha God had a plan for me.

God allowed me blessed me to survive this situation, but charge me with the responsibility of.

Saving somebody else if I could.

I found closure in your tri back to Vietnam and that our accolades go there.

Why is this such a clos fraternity?

Why don't people understan it?

Why?

Why do we have to argu about some of the dumb things?

Let me ask you something, Chris.

I want you know I think about this all the time.

You know, he was a black man.

Had he survived, he didn't have the same rights as m when he came back, right?

No.

My right.

No, he would not have been had I mean that really that really you know, I mean, I think about that all the tim here.

This guy, I mean, he gav everything from of us were white in this between, you know, and then, you know I think about that man.

This guy didn' have the same rights as me.

He couldn't, you know, I'd be picked for a jo before he would, really.

But he ha the same rights in in combat.

We were all right, you know level playing field in combat.

Yeah.

But when he came home he didn't.

And he he gave everythin for this country.

So we can sit here and talk.

I think, I think the greates pain that I experienced because I spent most of m military unit in airborne units, you know, and so and everyone unit that normally have very strong, very powerful hig speed of corps are the incidents that happened in Fort Bragg which was my old base there.

I was in the 82nd prio to joining hundred and first.

The kinds of things that ar going on in the military today like that, the skinhead thing.

And the only thing, you know that brings a lot of pain to me, because there are me who have given quite a bit wearing those uniforms and these young men are wearing and they seem to be desecratin the whole history of the unit.

And, and it seems to go her again and remind them, like Camus say, these things ar occurring during peacetime, so there is no common plague.

So people were creating turning on each other.

You know, I don't think people would have had tim for that type of activity during the Vietnam War because that was a common enemy, a common plague ther that sort of like alternate altered the environment the force people to work togethe in order to survive.

The thing at Fort Bragg was jus a tremendous blow to me.

And and how the military i for 40, had allowed that type of situati going on particular in the light of all the sacrific that have been made by men of color and of Jewish fait and of Hispanic and other soldiers are talkin that hate mongering stuff, you know, in the same uniform.

It just I think it wasn' about separation.

We, like yo said we owed our, selves to each other.

We didn't have tim for individuality.

And that made i that made that camaraderie.

We we had to have each othe and.

Yeah, why?

Why can't it otherwise be transferred back when we come bac stateside to back to the war?

Well I there are forces against that here that are or otherwise predisposed to perpetuate that division in hindsight.

And you black guy feel like that.

You just it was a waste of tim to go to defend this country, or at least in my mind, that' what we were doing at that time.

We were going to defend Americ from communist aggression.

Now, whateve you think of that line nowadays, do you think it was waste of your time?

Was it something I I was very political aware when I went into the military you know, and I never had that ide when I, when I was in the militar in a, particularly in a hostile area my leading was to my team.

I didn't go beyond my team In my company.

I didn't have this grand ide that I was saving the world from communist.

I was trying to get my team out of this damn villag before they got out.

Right.

You know what I mean That was my goal, man.

What they were doing and why But you were active in the civi rights movement.

You got one of the reason you ended up in the service is you got arrested trying to get people voters rights in Mississippi.

And and they turn your name into the draft boar to get him out of here.

You how it happened.

So, so, I mean, wasn' any of that on your mind?

What were you doin fighting another yellow man?

For the white man it was hardly enough.

It was not.

And I think as a young man, o one level, I was very patriotic.

And and I bought the lan that we had an enemy.

And then I was gentlemen.

Now you talk about hindsight That's a whole new thing.

But at that particular time so I was not thinking about making all these sacrifices and therefore I wanted to demand certain things, you know, that was tha was not on my mind at the time.

Now, interestingly enough, I went to Vietna in September of 1965.

Well, in August.

August the 20th.

As a matter of fact, it's whe the riots broke out in Watts.

So wha I'm saying is I'm leaving a ride or insurrection here in Los Angeles and I'm going going to combat.

So whereas in retrospect in hindsight, I'm saying I could have been thinking, well I, refuse to participate in this especially with my brothers, is, you know, dying in the streets.

But when I got to the norm it wasn't about politics.

It was about survivin and getting up out of there.

Interestingly enough, Hano Hannah, propaganda is right now.

She would she would break into the Armed Forces Radio Networ and she would play James Brown.

You know, one of those los someone and all the brothers.

And then she would say, so.

So, brother, why are you here?

This is not your war.

And she's right, you know, but it wasn't lik you can go get a jitney.

[Laughs] That guy!

Okay, when I'm through you know, it wasn't anything like that.

I mean, I heard her, but, you know, and I'm sure I had I had those reflection and thoughts and again, leaving the rid and the whole night.

But, I didn't get into politic either when I was in the Nam.

It was about survival.

It's about being acclimate to my environment and doing all those kind of things that I neede to go back home and then to address some things.

Once I got there, I wanted to ask you something, since you were in tow did you remember they had the high and lo band on the pricks on it?

Did you ever.

Armed Force Radio and listen to music?

Well, they played it.

Yeah we used to do that all the time.

Instead of wandering in the.

.

The diversion you had.

Right!

And then tal to the guys in the line.

Tell her about.

They gave me a newbie guy ma out on my recon team.

Break green fatigues.

Yeah.

And he come in, come in.

And we were in the Centra Highlands and they brought him out ther and said, well, he going over.

And so I told the old guy check him out.

You know, he was going ou on a three day sweeps.

And I wanted to make sur he had all the right.

This kid had deodorant, he had fresh air freshener.

He said grandmother told hi that would keep him mildew from getting on his feet.

So h he was one of the spreads feet.

He had all the wet ration in the world.

He had pound cakes and frui cocktails, you know, and I and I just went over ther and I started throwing away his power and cake and everything.

And he had lik he wanted to fight.

Do I like them?

I said, I'm not talkin about what you like.

Some of the talking about stand alive.

And then he.

I looked at his side pouch on his ripped sac and he had a radio Oh!

And I said, son, you'r in recon, you know, no radio.

No, no musi is listening to music.

He was interested in the music?

Yeah!

He wanted Bob out there!

So if my RTO, bo he would have been in danger if I caught him listening to his music My dad sent me a rubber suit, you know, because of his mind I told him about your mind.

Stay warm.

References.

You know, two piece suits you know, and I'm very thoughtful at that You know what I mean?

And I actually did put i on, and I went out, and, I mean, one da I got rips and tears in it.

I mean, it was mor of a hindrance than a help.

I mean, I wrote hi and thanked him for it, but, you know, my occupatio didn't allow for a. It just didn't work like that.

I had to help with half a doze leeches getting up under that thing.

Oh my goodness.

Interesting.

When he's talking about the aut and and those assignments, remember that on the last yea we talked about, you know.

Oh, yeah.

I saw you don't salute officers.

You don't.

If you're a radio operator you want to keep a low profile.

If you're a medic, you want t keep a low profile.

If you're low profile, if you'r an officer, you want to keep it.

You know, there were thos occupational automatic weapons.

You wanted to kee this little profile.

You didn't want to advertis that.

You know what I'm saying So that's another thing.

That was an unwritte law, alright!

You didnt call attention t yourself?

Right!

You know, I mean, if you if you had on of those sensitive positions or you wanted that respected you know, I mean, don't don't put me out o Front Street.

Gary you've looke after your friend Lewis.

How do you feel now?

Well, if you if you rea the official reports in that which I believe are correct.

The area remains untouche and what they term is war.

War like condition.

And because of it bein in the mountains and the soil.

And that if their bodie were buried, they, pretty much being in, you know, decomposed well, decomposed but they, you know.

Yeah.

You know, the, the heat and wash bone and that would probably be left.

See, the big thing is that what they call a bon dealers haven't moved in there.

What they do, they try, they dig up you know, whatever grazing and they try to sell i back to the US, you know.

Do you think the United State is doing a good job?

What do you thin the recon is going on?

I do.

There's seven of the over there.

There's some of them Seven of them.

Looking for a rip looking for MIAs.

And they didn't put o any kind of a show for me.

This is the first tim they've ever taken somebody in non-active status and took the into an area like this, and, in fact, the night, the first night before we went out two of them came down.

And, you know, the they said that they were going to give us 1,000% you know, and and they all did.

And you know, I, I know of them they're doing a tremendous job.

Unbelievable!

I had to weigh in to thin that they were discovering you know, in fact I remembe those bracelets they had for the Mayas back in the 60 and 70s?

A friend of mine.

Bill Campbell from Oklahoma He sent me two of those.

So I took these bracelets and I told them, he says, don't let the Vietnamese official see doing this.

He says, just go up.

And, some peopl keep them busy down on here.

So I went u and got took the camera up, and I took these bracelet and buried them.

The Battle of Hill 1000 have bracelets.

Lewis Howard junior from Macon, Georgia.

Charles Beals, Frenc Lick Indiana, both missing in action.

July 7th, 1972.

The Battle of Hill 1000 members of second betwee company D, second and 506 Infantry 101st Airborne Division.

Bury these in their memory.

Id Like to say a solid praye for them and all the men that were kille on this hill, and the hills around recor and this valley.

And when I looked up that whole team was up there with their you know, head bowed, you know, the whol the whole team.

And it made me think, you know, when I saw how peacefu these people were, you know, you know what was it all.

But let's just g around the horn real quick.

And in light of Gary' last comment about what was it all for, E you in the Mekong Delta?

You and the infantry.

Was it a waste?

No.

I never wante to perceive it as a waste.

You never wanted to.

Or was it?

Well, I never wanted.

I never wanted to nor would I, because, you know, I think the defining momen for me came when I was wounded in August, you know, a guy die coming in to save me.

Now, when you have an experienc like that, you know, and I've always disdained people saying, well, it's a waste of human lives and I understan what they're getting at.

But, you know, I never want to, ever, yo know, believe that those guys.

And I think that, you know everyone who died there, you know at least in my situation, I think for a lot of others die to save someone else's life, you know, Gary, I think all of us ar the perfect examples of, you know, for everyone who dies in war, there remain a friend forever was the was their heart when the brought the chopper in?

Is that what happened or.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah but they came in no matter what.

You know when you Yeah they did.

And whether it' a medevac chopper or a, a troop ship that's in the are that says I'm going to go down and pick people up, you know those things happened and, you know, again, amazing, incredible acts of courage da in and day out, things that, you know, mayb weren't recognized by a metal.

But I think all of us her sitting in our, you know, witnessed them and, you know, and I'm amaze at what Americans, soldiers, you know, in Vietnam have don and I think, you know, done in Korea in World War tw and Persian Gulf and Somalia.

And, you know, we sit her as, infantrymen and and sometime people have a notion that, well, if you were infantry you must have been a drug of society.

I think that nothin not in fact, on KDKA one day somebody called u the low rungs of society.

Nothing seems nothin can be further from the truth.

Right?

You know, and the arm statistics will verify, you know, the the higher IQ the ability to perform in a, in a combat situation you had to read those maps and they weren't even righ all the time.

Was it a waste for you, Johnny?

Never, never ever Was it a waste?

There was just s many lessons learned, so many positive, really positive thing that came out of that whole.

The duration in and of itsel was, you know, over a decade.

I mean, that's a that' a long time to be participating.

We have the Hebrew and the Rose.

Interesting.

When it was mentioning the rescue effort and I was sitting there thinking about Stev and some of the conversations we have and he he would fly in on this craft that would cut a hole dow through the foliage, and he would have to go dow on a, on a jungle penetration.

Right!

Right!

Exactly!

And you know, he's saying he' telling the guy, swim further.

You know what I mean That kind of.

But at the time that was his job.

That was his job.

And he didn't reac his responsibility.

I just say just real briefly when I when I really really reflect on Vietnam.

When I was 17 years old I got shot here in Pittsburgh up on Bentley Drive, gu playing with his dad's pistol, and he shot me in the neck and they had to operate an take it out the back of my neck.

So it was lodged in my neck.

And then I went to Vietna Marine Corps.

Combat Infantry stayed in the field 24 over seven and didn't get a scratch didn't get a scratch.

So I just kept coming away fro that thinking that Go had another mission for me.

He had a plan for me.

He allowed me or blessed me to survive this but to continue on his will.

So thats a waste, never!

It was probably the architect to my to who I am now that made m the person that who I am now.

So I don't do politics.

Okay, Gary.

Was it a waste for you?!

In the terms of, you know, al the human life that was lost.

I mean, when I when I went back this time and saw how peacefu the people were and, you know what were we fighting for?

I mean, at the time, I didn' even know what communism was.

And you think all the guy that were, you know, killed.

That's.

But like John says, as far as, you know, your friendship and everything that you know, the values and everything you know, I'll never you know you can never gain that.

You hold on to that canteen lik you never let it go.

Yeah.

No, yo can see where they remember how we used to use those tablet or C4, C4 to eat it.

And he did it.

You know, another thing that, it's like the nurses in tha and these hospitals.

Boy, they that's somethin you never hear about.

But you know what?

What a lot of the had to go through, you know, treating thes young boys, you know, that's m and half blowing the bits.

Yeah.

And that's that's where it's next year.

We'll have to find some nurses.

That' what you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike.

I guess you've counsele a lot of people that we'll let you put the clothe in note on this show.

Well, you say, do I think it was a waste?

I don't think I would eve characterize it as a ways.

I think I hope we have learne that there are other ways in whic we can resolve differences.

To come together and come together worldwide you know, because, anytime we reflect on war, it always tha we could have done it better.

But we don't seem to take that lesson, learn into the nex confrontational situation.

Right?

Currently, today, our nation is getting on the wa footing again.

We're talking abou having to go to war again.

And any time we go to war today we're talking about killing half a million people.

And I don't know I don't know there's anything that man can can't resolve through dialog.

It's worth setting aside spending a few weeks of killin a half a million people.

I mean, I just think we just go to get some patience, got to get some patience.

All right, well, gentlemen, as always I salute you for your service.

And I guess the bond that w all share is Vietnam veterans.

Well, it certainly will never leave me!

Yeah, it's always the same.

And, I've heard Mike sa we all had our own Vietnam's.

Everybody has a different story.

And it's certainly true.

And as usual I salute you for your service!

As I salute you [Salutes] Each one of you guys.

All right!

Thanks for joining us here o Black Horizons I'm Chris Moore.

I hope you appreciate this show!

Good night [Music Plays] (♪) My mother!

There's too many of you to cry!

Brother, brother brother!

There's far too many of you die!

You know, we've got to fight!

To bring some love in her today!

Father, father!

We don't need to escalate.

You see, war is not the answer!

(♪ ♪)